Best team since Waugh/ Ponting’s Australia?

[Spark]

If somehow, the Indian middle order (with or without Pujara and Rahane) sorts itself out this year, then we will have the best of both worlds and then maybe we could say India under Kohli circa 2022 is the best side since Ponting's Australia.

Right, but - presuming Pujara and Rahane are gone, as everyone here seems to want - that would be a clean break from the teams of 2017-18, and belong in its own discussion, rather than arbitrarily trying to rope in series from four, five years ago to prove a point.

As for the Australian teams, the keyword is the plural: teams. What made those Aus/WI eras stand out is that they could regenerate the team into a new team without the results falling off (until the late 00s and early 90s respectively for the two nations), rather than just a single team with a single peak. If India can regenerate its side multiple times and maintain the same level of results, then of course they'll be classed in the same bracket. But it's only really this current side, with Bumrah, with Siraj, which has really done the business away from home.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Anyway I think we can all agree this Indian team has taken it to another level and the results have been incredible. I'm still not convinced it's better than Ganguly's side, despite far superior bowling. but it's hard to argue with the success they've had away from home especially.

 

[Kilowatt]

I don't think I was ever arguing Ashwin, Jadeja, Shami and Yadav have always been great at home. The point is that the Bumrah+Siraj+Ashwin bowling machine we have right now away from home is also concurrent with 3-5 averaging 25.

Bumrah was a beast when Kohli and Pujara had their monster away series. Ishant matched him in average and Shami wasn't far behind. Ashwin was good in the only Aus match that he played as was Jadeja. Kuldeep too was actually useful and relevant. So it is entirely false to claim that our strong bowling has only arrived in 2020. Or that our current bowling is actually better than what is was 2 years ago (Bumrah certainly isn't). Also Siraj is a downgrade over pre-injury Ishant.

 

[Xix2565]

The point is that it was a chance for India's middle order to show that it could still do the business in flat conditions where a big first innings score was the key to winning the game, and that it's current poor record is mostly down to the difficulty of current Indian pitches in general. It did not, and what runs India did score were mostly down to the lower order.

But they weren't that flat later on? Like literally the next innings England fell apart after scoring runs for fun.

Do you legitimately believe that our bowling attack being elite away from home as they are now has coincided with our 3-5 being in passable form? I don't. Therefore, I don't think they can be mixed and it's disingenuous to conflate ATG batsman Kohli and Siraj within the same XI because they have never existed as part of the same team.

Our 2018/19 side had our batsman in form and the beginnings of a strong away bowling attack but we are actually a better side now despite our batting sucking due to how far the bowling attack has come and are actually winning more away from home. This is our best side away from home despite our 3-5.

I consider Kohli's India to be from 2015 to now, warts and all. I'll take a **** two years from the Panautis in the middle along with our generally good bowling along with the good bowling conditions in general globally from 2018 onwards as well as better data analysis that the Indian staff has to make the bowling better. If you don't then that's on you personally, and I don't really see why I have to split up this India by emergence of new bowlers or bad batting in the middle. We're explicitly not doing that for Smith's SA, Strauss's England (who no one cares about now anyway) or the past great sides of 80s WI/Waugh's Australia/Ponting's Australia.

So again, my question to the rest is why should we split up time just because Bumrah wasn't around?

 

[Spark]

Anyway I think we can all agree this Indian team has taken it to another level and the results have been incredible. I'm still not convinced it's better than Ganguly's side, despite far superior bowling. but it's hard to argue with the success they've had away from home especially.

I'd be interested to see how people rate it against the Dhoni side with Zaheer and second-peak Tendulkar, before it fell off the cliff. That was a very strong side at home as well, and competitive away.

 

[Teja.]

Bumrah was a beast when Kohli and Pujara had their monster away series. Ishant matched him in average and Shami wasn't far behind. Ashwin was good in the only Aus match that he played as was Jadeja. Kuldeep too was actually useful and relevant. So it is entirely false to claim that our strong bowling has only arrived in 2020. Or that our current bowling is actually better than what is was 2 years ago (Bumrah certainly isn't). Also Siraj is a downgrade over pre-injury Ishant.

I disagree pretty strongly. The bowling attack which we had in 2021 in England is stronger than what we had in 18/19. I'd in fact take the 2021 side as well over the 18/19 one despite the poor from of 3-5.

 

[centurymaker]

After readmission, in home conditions, South Africa didn't beat Australia even once, up until the 2018 series- involving Smith, Warner & ball tampering.

So no series wins at home for 26 years against Australia (1992-2018).

Also, SA not beaten England in home conditions for last 22 years! (2000-2021).

 

[Spark]

So again, my question to the rest is why should we split up time just because Bumrah wasn't around?

Because Bumrah and Siraj are the main reasons India is having the consistent success away from home that it is. Otherwise we're talking about the India team in England in 2018: competitive, but outmatched in the bowling department, and in no sense an ATG team.

 

[Daemon]

In b4 flem says lol Kohli’s India aren’t even the best side in the world atm

 

[Kilowatt]

Are you seriously claiming that a Test match where the first two innings totalled 900 runs was not played in batting friendly conditions? Hello? Did you watch that game? Were you going "wow, this is so difficult for batting" as Root and Stokes were scoring for fun? Posting "what bowling friendly conditions these are" as the English batting lineup, widely considered one of the worst to ever represent their country, put a 500+ score on in the first innings?

Yes, it got harder to bat as the Test match went on. That's what Test match pitches do.

Pune Day 1 and 2 - 508/24
Chennai Day 3 and Day 4 - 577/23

Everyone look, Spark here thinks that Pune 2017 was a flat pitch.

 

[TheJediBrah]

India aren’t even the best side in the world atm

Was just thinking that

 

[Spark]

Pune Day 1 and 2 - 508/24
Chennai Day 3 and Day 4 - 577/23

Everyone look, Spark here thinks that Pune 2017 was a flat pitch.

...

I don't think this "point" even merits a serious reply. Does Day 3 and 4 mean nothing to you?

 

[Spark]

I disagree pretty strongly. The bowling attack which we had in 2021 in England is stronger than what we had in 18/19. I'd in fact take the 2021 side as well over the 18/19 one despite the poor from of 3-5.

My abiding memory of the Indian attack in 2018 was that it was very respectable, certainly to be taken seriously, but it couldn't really control the game. So when things got out of hand (read: Sam Curran), they did so very quickly and somewhat catastrophically. That's something that the Indian side has definitively fixed but doesn't necessarily show up in stats.

 

[Xix2565]

Because Bumrah and Siraj are the main reasons India is having the consistent success away from home that it is. Otherwise we're talking about the India team in England in 2018: competitive, but outmatched in the bowling department, and in no sense an ATG team.

You're making arbitrary standards that you don't apply to any other team just because India got some new players who are good. Again, why is this not being applied to any other team involved in this discussion (Australia/SA/England)?

 

[Teja.]

My abiding memory of the Indian attack in 2018 was that it was very respectable, certainly to be taken seriously, but it couldn't really control the game. So when things got out of hand (read: Sam Curran), they did so very quickly and somewhat catastrophically. That's something that the Indian side has definitively fixed but doesn't necessarily show up in stats.

Yeah, away from home, we've gone from a team that can consistently bowl out teams for 250 to a team which can do that and also occasionally roll them for 100-150 and win the game in a session.

 

[OverratedSanity]

India's team is apparently almost as good as Waugh's Australia and the 80s WI but loses 2 tests in the last 2 series against an England team that has a batting lineup filled with 2000s bangladesh level batsmen + Joe Root. Lmao listen to yourselves. India should be absolutely demolishing such a poor team if they were that good.

 

[Spark]

Yeah, away from home, we've gone from a team that can consistently bowl out teams for 250 to a team which can do that and also occasionally roll them for 100-150 and win the game in a session.

I don't actually think this Indian pace attack has rolled that many sides away from home in the way that, say, Cummins and Hazlewood sometimes do. What they do is they never ever let the opposition get away so they're always at a minimum in the game, and then make enough runs for somewhere to basically squeeze the opposition to death.

 

[Teja.]

Also, I'm being 100% serious when I mention that Shardul is a massive addition to the team. The guy has played 4 tests and put in 2 MOTM worthy all round performances in historic away victories.

 

[Spark]

You're making arbitrary standards that you don't apply to any other team just because India got some new players who are good. Again, why is this not being applied to any other team involved in this discussion (Australia/SA/England)?

Those "new players who are good" are the only reason this discussion is happening in the first place as far as I'm concerned.

 

[TheJediBrah]

India's team is apparently almost as good as Waugh's Australia and the 80s WI but loses 2 tests in the last 2 series against an England team that has a batting lineup filled with 2000s bangladesh level batsmen + Joe Root. Lmao listen to yourselves. India should be absolutely demolishing such a poor team if they were that good.

Where have all these Indian extremists popped up from