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Is Ashwin an ATG spinner / player?

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subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
anil1405 said:
What do you mean by a winning performance in SENA? You expect him to take 6 or 7 or 8 wickets in an innings?

Ash taking a 5 fer in SENA will be rare because of the potent pace unit that India has had over the past 3-4 years and most likely to have till Ash retires for sure.

For me, if he does the job that captain expects him to, like picked few wickets when needed is a good enough job in those conditions. Like how he had Smith's number in the recent tour.
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Except he hasnt even taken a fifer once, even before India had their famed pace attack. And I gave examples ( Wanderers 2013, Centurion 2018 or Southhampton 2018), when the team was banking on him to deliver a performance on a late match pitch and he failed which cost India. In SENA, you cant expect spinners to win you a game on the first day but you can reasonably expect them to bowl out a team on day 4 or 5 once in a while. Even lesser spinners like Yasir Shah, Herath, Mushtaq Ahmed and Lyon have done that in SENA.
 
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S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Shri said:
There's a massive difference between bowlers averaging 25 and 21 ffs
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If you have guys like Doshi and Raju averaging 25 or less then averaging 21 is impressive but like I said, hardly earthshattering. Bedi and Kumble also had worldclass figures.

How do you feel about Philander doing even better in South Africa? Does that make him an ATG, and if not, why?
 
ankitj

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
subshakerz said:
If you have guys like Doshi and Raju averaging 25 or less then averaging 21 is impressive but like I said, hardly earthshattering.
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Have you seen Ashwin bowling in last 1.5 year? He has bowled better and smarter than any Indian spinner since I have been watching cricket. Just asking. Separate from your assessment of his ATG status. If you haven't you have missed out on something special.

His performance in Australia last summer and the only game he played in England (against NZ) would make ATGs proud. Doesn't matter if it didn't include a fiver.
 
anil1405

anil1405

International Captain
subshakerz said:
Except he hasnt even taken a fifer once, even before India had their famed pace attack. And I gave examples ( Wanderers 2013, Centurion 2018 or Southhampton 2018), when the team was banking on him to deliver a performance on a late match pitch and he failed which cost India. In SENA, you cant expect spinners to win you a game on the first day but you can reasonably expect them to bowl out a team on day 4 or 5. Even lesser spinners like Yasir Shah, Herath, Mushtaq Ahmed and Lyon have done that in SENA.
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Southampton 2018 is the only test I agree with you. Prior to 2018 Ash has been bang average in SENA as quite a few have pointed out here.

He has done pretty decent since 2018 and having Smith's number in Aus is a bigger win than your fascination for the 5-fers in SENA.
 
Slifer

Slifer

International Captain
karan_fromthestands said:
Pace bowlers dominate in SENA and spinners dominate in Asia barring a few exceptions. Saying that pace bowlers are more important is like having that old mindset where only performances in SENA countries count.

You say Ashwin and Jadeja can't perform consistently in SENA while totally ignoring the fact that fast bowlers are equally ineffective in Asia. We can go with 4 spinners and still dominate on Asian soil, just like teams can go with 4 pacers in SENA.

We had terrible pace bowling reserves at one point of time, no way we were winning in certain conditions without having even a decent pace bowling unit that could exploit the conditions before the spinners could chip in.

Saying that one type of bowlers are better than the other makes no sense. You might point out at a few performances here and there where pacers delivered in SC conditions and I can point out some of the games where spinners won games outside SC, but that doesn't change anything, both become superior/useless depending on the conditions.
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Which great fast bowler was ineffective in Asia? Walsh, the go-to stereotypical pacer was great in Asia, as was McGrath, Hadlee, Marshall, Donald, Pollock, Imran, Etc etc. None of them were as toothless as Ashwin is outside Asia.

What Flem said about Bumrah is completely true. India only became the world beating team because now, they've been able to consistently produce excellent fast bowlers who can perform overseas while Ashwin and Jadeja take a back seat.
 
sunilz

sunilz

International Regular
It is very difficult to find a perfect opener or spinner. If Warne and Murali are Hobbs/Hutton then Ashwin is at Hayden/Sehwag level.

So , the question is can Hayden/Sehwag be termed ATG ? The answer to this question will determine how much you rate Ashwin.
 
Nikhil99.94

Nikhil99.94

School Boy/Girl Captain
subshakerz said:
If you have guys like Doshi and Raju averaging 25 or less then averaging 21 is impressive but like I said, hardly earthshattering. Bedi and Kumble also had worldclass figures.

((How do you feel about Philander doing even better in South Africa? Does that make him an ATG, and if not, why?))
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? percent agree with the last point.
 
Slifer

Slifer

International Captain
ankitj said:
Since 2010, India's W/L ratio at home is 8.2. I went looking for home record of WI in their 20 years of dominance starting from 1975. Look what I found: https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...1975;spanval2=span;template=results;type=team
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I think a better comparison would be the WI in the actual 80s. In that decade, if I recall, they lost one test at home to Pakistan in 1988. Also, bear in mind two things, WI played about 2/3 of their series in that decade away. They never played near as many tests at home compared to India now. Also, bear in mind that unlike now, tests weren't started early or any of that stuff. There were quite a handful of tests that would've been rain affected and there was no making up for lost time:
First two tests Australia in WI 1984
First test New Zealand in wi 1985 etc.

Still, what India is doing now at home is utter domination, which is probably unprecedented.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
anil1405 said:
Southampton 2018 is the only test I agree with you. Prior to 2018 Ash has been bang average in SENA as quite a few have pointed out here.

He has done pretty decent since 2018 and having Smith's number in Aus is a bigger win than your fascination for the 5-fers in SENA.
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Centurion 2018, on a worn pitch, he took 1 wicket in SA's second innings, bowling around 30 overs when it was set up for him to run through SA.

No doubt he bowled well in 2021 in Australia but wouldnt call him matchwinning.
 
Nikhil99.94

Nikhil99.94

School Boy/Girl Captain
sunilz said:
Philander has only 224 Test wickets. Not remotely comparable to Ashwin.
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If you go by wkts and improved performance using filters what about jimmy Anderson since the start of 2014 he has taken 292 wkts at 21.9 and 102 wkts overseas at 24.3,I will say jimmy has a far better claim of being ATG than ashwin at this stage.
 
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