Is Ashwin an ATG spinner / player?

[ankitj]

Agree, how is this not common sense?

If Ashwin can play another 3-4 years and average sub-25 outside Asia in that time then he could well and truly make a strong claim to being an ATG

Can someone name posters who think Ashwin is an ATG?

 

[miscer]

it's also not a fair comparison imo. ashwin isn't picked for the job waqar is, and pacers are flat out just better.

Ah someone who doesn’t understand cricket and thinks a team sport is about optimizing stats out of context. Enjoy your 25 averaging pacer who gets tired in 20 overs vs my 28 averaging spinner who bowls 45 overs on the trot.

next guy will say batsmen are better than wicketkeepers! Spreadsheet expert

 

[karan_fromthestands]

Harder to pick, bit never had bounce (unpredictable) as Ashwin. He didn't have much drift too. He dipped it like a boss though.

Sure he did

 

[Nikhil99.94]

Good team but Dhoni has done enough to uproot Engineer. Pant might still replace Dhoni when he retires.

Dhoni will be a good choice too for wk but I will still have kohli as a captain tho.
Tbf I would love to have one of 2 Vijay(hazare,merchant)as well but both don’t have the stats in internationals both played less matches,hazare tho played 30 matches which isn’t less in those times and is more than what the great headley got but averaged just over 47.Hazare did score back to back century against a top quality attack in 1948 but averages 35 away .
Had he got a bit better stats say average of 55 in 30 matches,52 innings he might have been in the team.

 

[ma1978]

I view Merchant and Hazare as contextual greats. I don’t think they make an ATXI against the likes of the world dominant Kohli, Tendulkar, Sehwag, Gavaskar, Dravid.

However when you factor in the experiential and socioeconomic gaps that existing in the 1940s and 1950s (and on various levels through to the 1990s) between India and England / Australia, their records show greatness in that context and they should be celebrated for that.

this also highlights what a great player Headley was - the Black Bradman (as CLR James put it), indeed

 

[OverratedSanity]

Dhoni will be a good choice too for wk but I will still have kohli as a captain tho.
Tbf I would love to have one of 2 Vijay(hazare,merchant)as well but both don’t have the stats in internationals both played less matches,hazare tho played 30 matches which isn’t less in those times and is more than what the great headley got but averaged just over 47.Hazare did score back to back century against a top quality attack in 1948 but averages 35 away .
Had he got a bit better stats say average of 55 in 30 matches,52 innings he might have been in the team.

Hazare's away average of 35 is skewed entirely by one bad series in WI, his last ever series aged 38. Otherwise he averaged 48 in Australia and 41 in England. Legendary twin tons against an atg Australian attack too.

AUS vs IND Cricket Scorecard, 4th Test at Adelaide, January 23 - 28, 1948

Get cricket scorecard of 4th Test, AUS vs IND, India tour of Australia 1947/48 at Adelaide Oval dated January 23 - 28, 1948.

www.espncricinfo.com

Great player, definitely merits consideration for an India xi.

 

[Nikhil99.94]

Hazare's away average of 35 is skewed entirely by one bad series in WI, his last ever series aged 38. Otherwise he averaged 48 in Australia and 41 in England. Legendary twin tons against an atg Australian attack too.

AUS vs IND Cricket Scorecard, 4th Test at Adelaide, January 23 - 28, 1948

Get cricket scorecard of 4th Test, AUS vs IND, India tour of Australia 1947/48 at Adelaide Oval dated January 23 - 28, 1948.

www.espncricinfo.com

Great player, definitely merits consideration for an India xi.

Tbh The team of India in 1948 looks good enough,lack merchant and real good fast bowlers(like always except in this generation).
Bradman also wrote they (ind)lacked real good fast bowler,while writing abt the series.
This bowling attack of Australia is undoubtedly one of the best bowling attacks ever.

 

[Flem274*]

Ah someone who doesn’t understand cricket and thinks a team sport is about optimizing stats out of context. Enjoy your 25 averaging pacer who gets tired in 20 overs vs my 28 averaging spinner who bowls 45 overs on the trot.

next guy will say batsmen are better than wicketkeepers! Spreadsheet expert

you're cute.

pacers can and have dominated everywhere. the greatest spinner of all time....did not quite.

real bowlers are just better and it's no coincidence the two best subcontinental sides (India now, Pakistan with their great quicks) reached their heights because they had excellent pace bowling.

the greatest side in history fielded roger harper as token filler. you often need a spinner to do the donkey work and cover your arse on day 5, but you always need real bowlers.

spinners are the ultimate horse for the course. Jamieson and Southee can take wickets on that Kanpur mudheap (and Southee averages 23 in India pre-Mumbai, cbf checking it now). Ashwin and Jadeja cannot consistently take wickets in SENA, as evidenced by Ashwin's usual dropping on tour and Jadeja being mostly a support bowler.

The current Indian side is built on Bumrah and mates, not on Ashwin and Jadeja. India consistently wheel out fingerspinners who can dominate at home and ensure home safety. India today without Bumrah and their pace depth would be as hamstrung away from home as the side that could call on Tendulkar, Dravid, Sehwag and Laxman.

 

[Shri]

In fact, his great record in India only highlights how dependent he is on conditions to be penetrative. ATGs should be a threat in most if not all conditions.

Well you obviously only watch cricket through statsguru. Name a better spinner who is Ashwin's contemporary who has done well in all conditions? Ball won't spin in ****ing New Zealand no matter what.

Also sena tracks have slowly become batting friendly over the last 12 years.

Eng tracks do not deteriorate to favour spin generally and overhead conditions plus red ball used there swings through out. Spinners marginalized. No one half decent since Swann.

RSA - no

Aus - drop in pitches not quite the same as old. Mcg doesn't spin like it used to. Scg neither.

Ash has extracted as much as he can out of declining pitches for spinners around the world. The rest are nowhere as good as him and the records show that.

 

[Nikhil99.94]

Ash has extracted as much as he can out of declining pitches for spinners around the world. ((The rest are nowhere as good as him and the records show that.))

Overseas Lyon and ashwin have been pretty much equals with almost similar stats in matches played in overseas conditions with Lyon having 60 more wickets at a bit better average I.e 29.42 compared to ashwins 31.18 in all opposition they both play as ind doesn’t play pak,including pak in Lyons stats both have almost same stats overseas .

 

[honestbharani]

Overseas Lyon and ashwin have been pretty much equals with almost similar stats in matches played in overseas conditions with Lyon having 60 more wickets at a bit better average I.e 29.42 compared to ashwins 31.18 in all opposition they both play as ind doesn’t play pak,including pak in Lyons stats both have almost same stats overseas .

The silliness of including Lyon's "overseas" stats which includes spin friendly SC

 

[karan_fromthestands]

you're cute.

pacers can and have dominated everywhere. the greatest spinner of all time....did not quite.

real bowlers are just better and it's no coincidence the two best subcontinental sides (India now, Pakistan with their great quicks) reached their heights because they had excellent pace bowling.

the greatest side in history fielded roger harper as token filler. you often need a spinner to do the donkey work and cover your arse on day 5, but you always need real bowlers.

spinners are the ultimate horse for the course. Jamieson and Southee can take wickets on that Kanpur mudheap (and Southee averages 23 in India pre-Mumbai, cbf checking it now). Ashwin and Jadeja cannot consistently take wickets in SENA, as evidenced by Ashwin's usual dropping on tour and Jadeja being mostly a support bowler.

The current Indian side is built on Bumrah and mates, not on Ashwin and Jadeja. India consistently wheel out fingerspinners who can dominate at home and ensure home safety. India today without Bumrah and their pace depth would be as hamstrung away from home as the side that could call on Tendulkar, Dravid, Sehwag and Laxman.

Pace bowlers dominate in SENA and spinners dominate in Asia barring a few exceptions. Saying that pace bowlers are more important is like having that old mindset where only performances in SENA countries count.

You say Ashwin and Jadeja can't perform consistently in SENA while totally ignoring the fact that fast bowlers are equally ineffective in Asia. We can go with 4 spinners and still dominate on Asian soil, just like teams can go with 4 pacers in SENA.

We had terrible pace bowling reserves at one point of time, no way we were winning in certain conditions without having even a decent pace bowling unit that could exploit the conditions before the spinners could chip in.

Saying that one type of bowlers are better than the other makes no sense. You might point out at a few performances here and there where pacers delivered in SC conditions and I can point out some of the games where spinners won games outside SC, but that doesn't change anything, both become superior/useless depending on the conditions.

 

[Nikhil99.94]

The silliness of including Lyon's "overseas" stats which includes spin friendly SC

Ashwins overseas stats include same SC as well overseas means out of ind for ash and outside of aus for Gary,stats of Lyon in ind is a average of 30.58 ,whereas his overall overseas stats is similar too it so it isn’t bowling in ind which make his overseas stats better,Lyon and ashwin have been pretty much equals outside their home.So,even excluding ind for Lyon (which doesn’t make any difference in his overseas stats ) their overseas stats are almost similar.
They both have been almost equals overseas ,as I was replying to the person who said no one is anywhere near ash and no one has anywhere near record.
And I amnot saying Lyon is better or anything I am just saying Lyon has been almost ashwins equal.

 

[OverratedSanity]

The current Indian side is built on Bumrah and mates, not on Ashwin and Jadeja. India consistently wheel out fingerspinners who can dominate at home and ensure home safety. India today without Bumrah and their pace depth would be as hamstrung away from home as the side that could call on Tendulkar, Dravid, Sehwag and Laxman.

Our greatest away series win of all time was as much down to Ashwin/Jadeja as it was Bumrah/Siraj etc. Steve Smith wasnt kept quiet by Bumrah, it was Ashwin who prevented him from burying us in the usual mountain of runs.

 

[Xix2565]

Real shame we don't have more "real posters" like myself and others instead of these fakers like Flem who can't dominate convos without making up nonsense.

 

[honestbharani]

Ashwins overseas stats include same SC as well overseas means out of ind for ash and outside of aus for Gary,stats of Lyon in ind is a average of 30.58 ,whereas his overall overseas stats is similar too it so it isn’t bowling in ind which make his overseas stats better,Lyon and ashwin have been pretty much equals outside their home.So,even excluding ind for Lyon (which doesn’t make any difference in his overseas stats ) their overseas stats are almost similar.
They both have been almost equals overseas ,as I was replying to the person who said no one is anywhere near ash and no one has anywhere near record.
And I amnot saying Lyon is better or anything I am just saying Lyon has been almost ashwins equal.

Sure. Overseas that includes India for a spinner and Overseas that includes Australia for another. Totally fair.

 

[Nikhil99.94]

Sure. Overseas that includes India for a spinner and Overseas that includes Australia for another. Totally fair.

So in short,I am just saying if the match is in India ash is far better and if it’s in aus Lyon is far better and if it’s outside those 2 countries in wi both are almost same ,in sl ash is better in nz lyon is better,in eng ash is better,in sa lyon is better.
So that’s 3 for ash and 3 for lyon and both are almost same in wi.So,they are almost each other equals,not like ash is far better than all spinners with far better record like Shri said.

 

[_00_deathscar]

So in short,I am just saying if the match is in India ash is far better and if it’s in aus Lyon is far better and if it’s outside those 2 countries in wi both are almost same ,in sl ash is better in nz lyon is better,in eng ash is better,in sa lyon is better.
So that’s 3 for ash and 3 for lyon and both are almost same in wi.So,they are almost each other equals,not like ash is far better than all spinners with far better record like Shri said.

No, what we're saying is if it's in India, we go with Ashwin, and if it's in Australia, we go with Jadeja because he averages like 20 or something there.

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah like post 2015 SENA, I am sure.

You can keep excusing every good performance as a spinning pitch or weak opposition when people who have actually watched the games know it was neither. I mean, if an ATG can be someone who relied on bottle tops and cheating umpires, I feel someone who actually performed and won games at home with neutral umpires and no ball tampering is definitely an ATG. And a better one.

Then why cant he do it away?

 

[subshakerz]

Well you obviously only watch cricket through statsguru. Name a better spinner who is Ashwin's contemporary who has done well in all conditions? Ball won't spin in ****ing New Zealand no matter what.

Also sena tracks have slowly become batting friendly over the last 12 years.

Eng tracks do not deteriorate to favour spin generally and overhead conditions plus red ball used there swings through out. Spinners marginalized. No one half decent since Swann.

RSA - no

Aus - drop in pitches not quite the same as old. Mcg doesn't spin like it used to. Scg neither.

Ash has extracted as much as he can out of declining pitches for spinners around the world. The rest are nowhere as good as him and the records show that.

If Ashwin wants to be called an ATG then his comparison is not with contemporary spinners but with the best who ever played the game. And dont give this declining pitch argument for why he has failed to win matches in SENA, something even lesser spinners like Yasir Shah, Lyon and Herath have managed to do.

Ashwin has had multiple opportunities where the match has been set up in his favor and he didnt seal the deal, such as Wanderers 2013, Centurion 2018 or Southhampton 2018.