Is Ashwin an ATG spinner / player?

[Gob]

Short answer no
Long answer nah

 

[silentstriker]

Short answer no
Long answer nah

I think could argue to have him in an all time Indian XI just for his success vs. LHBs. If he were to face other teams all time XI, he may face:

Australia: Border, Hayden, Langer, Gilchrist
WI: Sobers, Lloyd, Lara, Chanderpaul
England: Cook, Gower
SA: Pollock, Graeme Smith, Kirsten
Sri Lanka: Sangakarra, Jayasurya, Ranatunga
NZ: Fleming, Hadlee
Pakistan: Anwar

I am sure I am missing a few.

 

[Slifer]

I think could argue to have him in an all time Indian XI just for his success vs. LHBs. If he were to face other teams all time XI, he may face:

Australia: Border, Hayden, Langer, Gilchrist
WI: Sobers, Lloyd, Lara, Chanderpaul
England: Cook, Gower
SA: Pollock, Graeme Smith, Kirsten
Sri Lanka: Sangakarra, Jayasurya, Ranatunga
NZ: Fleming, Hadlee
Pakistan: Anwar

I am sure I am missing a few.

No.

 

[Gob]

I think could argue to have him in an all time Indian XI just for his success vs. LHBs. If he were to face other teams all time XI, he may face:

Australia: Border, Hayden, Langer, Gilchrist
WI: Sobers, Lloyd, Lara, Chanderpaul
England: Cook, Gower
SA: Pollock, Graeme Smith, Kirsten
Sri Lanka: Sangakarra, Jayasurya, Ranatunga
NZ: Fleming, Hadlee
Pakistan: Anwar

I am sure I am missing a few.

Oh he is the first picked spinner in an AT team India side

 

[Prince EWS]

ATVG for sure, don't know about ATG. Maybe though. Feel like if we open it up to Ashwin though then you open ATG up to a **** load of other players

depends how exclusive you want to make it.

Yeah I think he's potentially on the way, but he's not there yet IMO.

 

[subshakerz]

Ashwin has something like 9 or 10 MoS performances in 33 series played overall. That is just ridiculous. Even if you consider him a HTB, he is at a different level of HTB compared to anyone, even Anderson or Sehwag or Warner. Which means even being genuinely decent to good (and nothing more) away from home is more than enough for him to be an ATG. He is arguably the greatest match winner in my time of watching cricket and also the greatest bowler against left handers probably ever. Those are superlatives you cant just ignore.

Superlative performances in friendly conditions dont make up for below par performances in away conditions. Otherwise Murali should be rated far higher than any bowler in history based on his insane home numbers plus very good away numbers.

What Ashwin has done is impressive but hardly unique. There are plenty of other spinners who have world class figures and plenty of matches won in their own backyards but are lacking away from home, such as Herath, Jadeja, Yasir Shah or even Kumble. You can already foresee someone like Axar Patel ending up with similar figures by the end of his career. Its not that big of a deal.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Otherwise Murali should be rated far higher than any bowler in history based on his insane home numbers plus very good away numbers.

Well yeah. Its probably true. Don't know why you said it as though it was something ridiculous lol.

 

[Xix2565]

Well yeah. Its probably true. Don't know why you said it as though it was something ridiculous lol.

The Warne cult is oppressive.

 

[silentstriker]

No.

Not saying they would necessarily make the first XI - obviously it’s exceedingly difficult to make the WI XI at any position - but the weight of their runs is not to be dismissed in terms of them being up for selection for the first couple XIs.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Not saying they would necessarily make the first XI - obviously it’s exceedingly difficult to make the WI XI at any position - but the weight of their runs is not to be dismissed in terms of them being up for selection for the first couple XIs.

It's an incredibly convoluted and ineffective way to try and convince people to rate him as an ATG though lol

 

[silentstriker]

It's an incredibly convoluted and ineffective way to try and convince people to rate him as an ATG though lol

You think? There’s lots of very good left handers that he may face in other all time XIs and he may be very very useful in that regard. Obviously I mean in terms of India XI.

I don’t think anyone is seriously claiming he ranks ahead of Warne or Murali.

 

[Coronis]

It's 21/39, which is not that bad, but yeah still indicates he's been dropped/injured plenty. Ultimately I dont think the fact that he gets dropped is that strong of an argument (especially because a handful of these like Adelaide 2012 and the recent england tour are example of Kohli just being a dumbass) , atleast not as much as the fact that he's simply not quite consistently great enough for that ATG status.

If he gets in shape and has 4-5 great away tours in the next few years then maybe.

Idk where you’re getting your 39 number from.. I did actually put 2010 originally but that reduces it only to 53 tests, no?

Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

 

[Coronis]

My point was that even the greatest got dropped.

For a single test. At the very start of their career. Not for more than half their tests outside of Asia.

Even whilst being dropped, he averages 35 outside of Asia, compared to 21 in Asia. I don’t consider him an ATG based on these numbers and being dropped everytime India tours outside the SC. Almost identical numbers to Jadeja. Neither are ATG bowlers imo.

 

[honestbharani]

It was never a "thing", he might have kept him out of the team here and there to get the composition right, but it's not even comparable to how Kohli treats Ash. Ganguly never kept Kumble out of the team due to his "stubbornness".

You need to read up more on Indian cricket, I think. Ganguly himself said how much Kumble hated that and they were not even on speaking terms at a point. Dravid had to go and talk to Kumble. It definitely was stubbornness on Ganguly's part, coz unlike Jaddu, Bhajji was not even helping us win or anything. He just kept sucking and honestly was not all that better a batsman than Kumble either.

 

[honestbharani]

Superlative performances in friendly conditions dont make up for below par performances in away conditions. Otherwise Murali should be rated far higher than any bowler in history based on his insane home numbers plus very good away numbers.

You seem to confuse your opinion to be some kind of law in these things. FWIW, I do rate Murali as amongst the greatest bowlers ever and definitely the best bowler in my time of watching cricket.

And as usual you are talking out of your ass for the rest of your post. Which player, forget spinner, has 9 MoS in 33 series? Seriously, which one?

 

[sunilz]

Considering the player he gets dropped for is a slightly inferior spinner but better batsman, I don't consider it a negative point for Ashwin.

Even Aus rarely used to play Warne/McGill together . In how many matches did Saqlain and Mushtaq Ahmed played together outside Asia ?

 

[OverratedSanity]

Idk where you’re getting your 39 number from.. I did actually put 2010 originally but that reduces it only to 53 tests, no?

Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

You're counting the "ICC test championship" games twice since they're listed once as individual series and once as the overall tournament haha. Don't blame you though, it's made statsguru-ing a total pain.

 

[sunilz]

The only point that counts against Ashwin is his average in SENA countries. He needs to bring it down to around 30. All remaining criticism are pointless.

If Warne/Murali were playing for India today , they too might be dropped in some matches ( But not as frequently as Ashwin)

 

[Daemon]

Ashwin’s the Kane Williamson of bowlers. Not a great record overseas but constantly denied of opportunities to improve it ever since he got really good.

 

[sunilz]

People on this forum didn't even pick both Warne and Murali in 2000-09 Team of the decade few months ago ( @mr_mister you need to complete ODI one too) . But want Indian team to select both Ashwin and Jadeja together.