ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
Kumble was playing alongside meme pace bowlers. Ashwin for majority of his cricketers has played alongside 2-3 world class pace bowlers who compete for wickets effectively.
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Is Ashwin an ATG spinner / player?
- Thread starter ma1978
- Start date
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
I see Ashwin as a better version of Jadeja, not meant as an insult. But you cant call someone whose record is so schewed towards particular conditions as an ATG. Spinning ATGs are basically Warne/Murali level and Ashwin is far from that.
_00_deathscar
International Regular
It's safe to say we got a proper good bowling pace attack some time around 2016?
He averages 27.43 away (and 11.25 in a neutral venue) since then - although having only played 18 (+1 neutral) tests.
It's a swings and roundabouts thing because he simply isn't needed as much in certain places because our pace attack takes over - and it's especially an issue when we keep playing our spuds 2-4 - and then at that stage Jadeja is arguably more valuable to the team, rightly or wrongly. England just now being the perfect example - yes we don't know how things would have gone if Ashwin were there, but we won* the series 2-1 so...
He averages 27.43 away (and 11.25 in a neutral venue) since then - although having only played 18 (+1 neutral) tests.
It's a swings and roundabouts thing because he simply isn't needed as much in certain places because our pace attack takes over - and it's especially an issue when we keep playing our spuds 2-4 - and then at that stage Jadeja is arguably more valuable to the team, rightly or wrongly. England just now being the perfect example - yes we don't know how things would have gone if Ashwin were there, but we won* the series 2-1 so...
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
That didnt stop Warne from taking 5fers everywhere, did it?
Yeah but even then he has had several 4th and 5th day opportunities in SENA when any quality spinner would be expected to seal test matches and he has failed.
ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
No one's saying Ashwin is Warne level. Ashwin's record since 2015 in SENA is perfectly acceptable. It would be better if not for selection errors.
_00_deathscar
International Regular
Yes, but that's why he's not a guaranteed ATG and only an arguable one - like a very lower rung one...Courtney Walsh level stuff at best type. Don't think anyone is arguing he's a guaranteed ATG.
It is a discussion to be had though.
The other point is that he's SO good at home that it's hard to ignore that completely - it's ridiculous dominance.
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
That is a stupid opinion.
After Warne/Murali, who would you consider as the best spinner in the past 30 years?
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
If Ashwin was truly an ATG level spinner, then dropping him in any conditions would be unthinkable. You are basically admitting his lack of effectiveness away from spin tops.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Its my opinion. I consider ATGs a very select group, and ATG spinners even moreso. Basically only a handful in history. Perhaps your criteria for ATG is more charitable.
_00_deathscar
International Regular
It's possible to be ATG without being Warne/Murali level, though. They're the only two you wouldn't really drop.
Ashwin has been perfectly fine since 2016 - he's also competing with Jadeja don't forget, that's a large part of the issue. He hasn't been given a proper chance to either prove or disprove his status - because he's competing with a dude who is perfectly servicable as an away spinner (if you have a good pace attack) in containing things but can score runs and field like a demon.
Now yes you wouldn't drop Warne/Murali for Jadeja (although - actually Kohli probably would, if he wants to 4+1 and Jadeja's scoring regular 50s and shoring up the batting line up and doing things like running out Smith from square leg with 1 stump to aim at), but again, he's not Warne/Murali. He's a level below that.
Question is if you want to call it ATG/ATVG/something in between etc.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Perfectly acceptable is not good enough for calling yourself an ATG.
ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
This doesn't make sense. When you want to play only one spin bowlers and all your pace bowlers can't hold the bat, you may pick slightly inferior spin bowler but better batsman (on form). That's what Kohli did. I disagree with that approach but it doesn't say anything about how good Ashwin is or isn't as a bowler.
ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
As everyone has said he is almost an ATG, not confirmed so not sure what you are going on about really.
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
Nah, I consider ATGs ATGs. For a game that has been there and evolved over 250 years, to say ATG can only be a handful is truly a stupid opinion.
I mean Warne was pretty **** at times, doesn't exactly detract from his greatness. Why is this suddenly a thing for Ashwin?
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Difficult question. Perhaps Kumble and Ashwin who will likely overtake him by the end of his career due to the sheer weight of wickets.
_00_deathscar
International Regular
Don't you think there's something off when most Indian fans on the forum rate Ashwin > Kumble?
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
I assume we are discounting 19th century cricket.
ATG spinners are a handful. My criteria for an ATG is someone who merits consideration for a spot in an ATG XI.