World Series Cricket Stats

[OverratedSanity]

Do you give Ponting the same leniency?

Absolutely. Ponting>Chappell is something I 100% back by the same logic.

Irrefutable proof:

Chappell only played 12 years of test cricket and was never tested in overseas conditions as much as most other great players even of his own era. Will take Ponting over him every time.

 

[Gob]

Chappell averaged 53 from 87 tests

Viv averaged 53 after 87 tests. And played another 35 tests averaging 42, which is still pretty damn good production for age 36-39. Pretty clearly better career stats.

Chappell did convert his scores into tons a lot more frequently as I said though which is a point in his favour.

This is a flawed way of looking at this. Those 87 tests for Chappell was his complete career including possible late career slumps and you are comparing that to Viv's minus the massive slump towards the end. Chappell made his debut when he was 22 and retired at 36 which seems fairly reasonable for me
I think the major criticism with regards to Chappell was that he picked and chose tours.
Great numbers away too although underwhelming in England

 

[Gob]

Different topic but for Aust batsmen

Bradman >Smith>Chappell>Ponting>Border imo

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

This is a flawed way of looking at this. Those 87 tests for Chappell was his complete career including possible late career slumps and you are comparing that to Viv's minus the massive slump towards the end. Chappell made his debut when he was 22 and retired at 36 which seems fairly reasonable for me
I think the major criticism with regards to Chappell was that he picked and chose tours.View attachment 29979
Great numbers away too although underwhelming in England

22-36

Chappell 151 innings , 7110 runs , 53.86, 24 x 100 ,31 x 50
Viv 156 innings , 7714 , 52.83, 23 x 100 ,37 x 50

 

[Nikhil99.94]

For Australia’s batsman top 6-
Bradman>>smith>Greg>AB>ponting>trumper

 

[trundler]

If anything, Chappell's record after 87 tests is less representative than Richards as the former picked and chose which tours he went on. 87 tests/12ish years is a relatively short career by ATG standards especially so considering Chappell stopped touring entirely after a certain point. Richards had some epic battles against a rampaging Imran in Pakistan and was the difference between the 2 sides, for example. Chappell OTOH never even played in India and his sole series against WI came in '73. People are quick to latch onto the notion that Gavaskar's record against WI is overstated because he feasted on shite spinners in his debut series but Chappell's away record is even more of a myth. Chappell was a mighty fine player as a paragon of technical perfection and grace and he did do well against the touring WI attacks and in WSC but nonetheless Richards and Gavaskar had significantly longer and more decorated careers. Also, please refer to my previous posts about how marking down a bloke for playing past his best is stupid when he had done better up until a similar career length than his competition.

 

[The Sean]

Christian Ryan made a good point about this in his phenomenal book about Kim Hughes. While there were undeniably mitigating circumstances around Chappell’s retirement (he made a similar observation about Lillee and Marsh) – he was 35 years old which wasn’t considered premature back then, he’d been managing his touring workload for years anyway, he’d given a huge amount to the game and for his country, and he had considerable and lucrative business interests outside of cricket – given the situation Australian cricket was in, it felt more than a little selfish.

Australia’s next ten consecutive Tests were all scheduled to be against the West Indies, and if there was ever a time for Australia’s most accomplished and experienced batsman to suck it up for another twelve months and help his team through the maelstrom of arguably the most fearsome cricket team in history, it was then.

 

[Gob]

If anything, Chappell's record after 87 tests is less representative than Richards as the former picked and chose which tours he went on. 87 tests/12ish years is a relatively short career by ATG standards especially so considering Chappell stopped touring entirely after a certain point. Richards had some epic battles against a rampaging Imran in Pakistan and was the difference between the 2 sides, for example. Chappell OTOH never even played in India and his sole series against WI came in '73. People are quick to latch onto the notion that Gavaskar's record against WI is overstated because he feasted on ****e spinners in his debut series but Chappell's away record is even more of a myth. Chappell was a mighty fine player as a paragon of technical perfection and grace and he did do well against the touring WI attacks and in WSC but nonetheless Richards and Gavaskar had significantly longer and more decorated careers. Also, please refer to my previous posts about how marking down a bloke for playing past his best is stupid when he had done better up until a similar career length than his competition.

What were the tours Chappell skipped and based on what? Its very common now for players to take breaks from games for mental health. I heard he had issues with tonsillitis for long periods. I'm honestly asking cos I don't know

 

[The Sean]

Christian Ryan made a good point about this in his phenomenal book about Kim Hughes. While there were undeniably mitigating circumstances around Chappell’s retirement (he made a similar observation about Lillee and Marsh) – he was 35 years old which wasn’t considered premature back then, he’d been managing his touring workload for years anyway, he’d given a huge amount to the game and for his country, and he had considerable and lucrative business interests outside of cricket – given the situation Australian cricket was in, it felt more than a little selfish.

Australia’s next ten consecutive Tests were all scheduled to be against the West Indies, and if there was ever a time for Australia’s most accomplished and experienced batsman to suck it up for another twelve months and help his team through the maelstrom of arguably the most fearsome cricket team in history, it was then.

For comparison, had Ponting retired at an equivalent time – that is, at the end of the Australian summer in which he was 35 years old – he’d have played 144 Tests across just over 15 years with a record of 11,859 runs at 55.68, and finished his Test career with a double century on his home ground.

It'd be interesting to see if or how differently he’d have been rated if that were the case – on the one hand that would have been a spectacular way to go out, and with a far superior average than he declined to. But it would surely have been noted as well that relative to most of his great contemporaries, he called it and got away much earlier.

 

[Gob]

Christian Ryan made a good point about this in his phenomenal book about Kim Hughes. While there were undeniably mitigating circumstances around Chappell’s retirement (he made a similar observation about Lillee and Marsh) – he was 35 years old which wasn’t considered premature back then, he’d been managing his touring workload for years anyway, he’d given a huge amount to the game and for his country, and he had considerable and lucrative business interests outside of cricket – given the situation Australian cricket was in, it felt more than a little selfish. Australia’s next ten consecutive Tests were all scheduled to be against the West Indies, and if there was ever a time for Australia’s most accomplished and experienced batsman to suck it up for another twelve months and help his team through the maelstrom of arguably the most fearsome cricket team in history, it was then.

Haha felt the same way for Hussey when he retired. He was retained in the side despite numerous calls to be dropped but when he actually retired, he was at the best shape and left Aust with basically a solitary test class batsman to take on India and England away.

 

[OverratedSanity]

This is a flawed way of looking at this. Those 87 tests for Chappell was his complete career including possible late career slumps and you are comparing that to Viv's minus the massive slump towards the end.

No. Viv's "massive slump" I mentioned was a 35 test period where he averaged 42. This was from age 36-39. By age 36 Chappell had retired, probably before his slump could even be recorded in his stats.

 

[mr_mister]

Viv averaged in that low 40s ballpark for a lot longer period mate

from 1982 to to 1991, aged 30-39 he averaged 43.9, scoring 11 tons in his last 76 tests (got 13 in his first 45, double the rate)

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/52812.html?class=1;spanmin1=01+Jan+1982;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

His 1976 was such a crazy year(1700 runs, never passed 1000 again in a year) that it meant his average took a long time to come down, but his ATG output stopped very early. Of course averaging 44 for a decade isn't even bad, but compared to where his reputation sits..


No other ATG bat's averages fall so steeply by simply removing one year from the career either

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Viv averaged in that low 40s ballpark for a lot longer period mate

from 1982 to to 1991, aged 30-39 he averaged 43.9, scoring 11 tons in his last 76 tests (got 13 in his first 45, double the rate)

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/52812.html?class=1;spanmin1=01+Jan+1982;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

His 1976 was such a crazy year(1700 runs, never passed 1000 again in a year) that it meant his average took a long time to come down, but his ATG output stopped very early. Of course averaging 44 for a decade isn't even bad, but compared to where his reputation sits..


No other ATG bat's averages fall so steeply by simply removing one year from the career either

What matters is peer rating.
Viv is a CW favorite.

 

[Coronis]

Viv averaged in that low 40s ballpark for a lot longer period mate

from 1982 to to 1991, aged 30-39 he averaged 43.9, scoring 11 tons in his last 76 tests (got 13 in his first 45, double the rate)

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/52812.html?class=1;spanmin1=01+Jan+1982;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

His 1976 was such a crazy year(1700 runs, never passed 1000 again in a year) that it meant his average took a long time to come down, but his ATG output stopped very early. Of course averaging 44 for a decade isn't even bad, but compared to where his reputation sits..


No other ATG bat's averages fall so steeply by simply removing one year from the career either

And that is why peer rating is an overrated measure of a players true value and skill.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Viv averaged in that low 40s ballpark for a lot longer period mate

from 1982 to to 1991, aged 30-39 he averaged 43.9, scoring 11 tons in his last 76 tests (got 13 in his first 45, double the rate)

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/52812.html?class=1;spanmin1=01+Jan+1982;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

I dont think its that unusual? The average in that extended stretch is still dragged down by the 88-91 numbers. 82-88 he averaged 47, which is perfectly fine. Players that have extended declines because of playing longer than most players will have these kind of stretches. I can find some similar spans for other players quite easily.

Allan Border's last 8 years (1987-1994) 65 tests, average 45.9 (https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...an;template=results;type=batting;view=innings)

Garry Sobers' last 6 years (1968-1974) 28 tests, average 44 (https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...an;template=results;type=batting;view=innings)

Sunil Gavaskar's last 8 years (1981-1987) 62 tests, average 45 (https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...1;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting)

Ponting's last 7 years (2006-2012): 63 tests, average 42.8 (https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...an;template=results;type=batting;view=innings)

Herbert Sutcliffe in the last 4 years of an 11 year career (1932-1935): 16 tests, average 40.5. (https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...2;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting)

I'm sure I can find plenty more. Viv's is marginally more drawn out than some of these but enough to be some huge black mark that is mentioned just for him and not these guys? I'm not sure about that.

The point about 1976 is reasonable, it was a very concentrated burst of scoring.

 

[_00_deathscar]

What were the tours Chappell skipped and based on what? Its very common now for players to take breaks from games for mental health. I heard he had issues with tonsillitis for long periods. I'm honestly asking cos I don't know

I heard it was a broken toenail.

 

[mr_mister]

76 out of 121 tests is a big, big chunk of his career, but in terms of years yeah it doesn't look that much worse than the examples you gave

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

And that is why peer rating is an overrated measure of a players true value and skill.

Peer Rating is overrated for Viv and Warne.
Underrated for Lillee and Akram.

 

[ankitj]

Viv averaged in that low 40s ballpark for a lot longer period mate

from 1982 to to 1991, aged 30-39 he averaged 43.9, scoring 11 tons in his last 76 tests (got 13 in his first 45, double the rate)

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/52812.html?class=1;spanmin1=01+Jan+1982;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

His 1976 was such a crazy year(1700 runs, never passed 1000 again in a year) that it meant his average took a long time to come down, but his ATG output stopped very early. Of course averaging 44 for a decade isn't even bad, but compared to where his reputation sits..


No other ATG bat's averages fall so steeply by simply removing one year from the career either

You can equally look at first 76 tests where he averaged 54.31 and it would seem he was terrific for large majority of his career. One ought to be careful with such slicing. Overall average in a time window is not what they average throughout that time window.

 

[The Sean]

Yeah, Viv wasn’t really a case of all good then all mediocre (which I suppose is true of most batsmen) – you could almost say he had five “chunks” in his career:

• The year-and-a-bit from debut to January 1976, where he averaged 30 over his first 11 Tests
• The golden period from 1976 to 1981 where he averaged nearly 75 (with two years of WSC in there as well) and staked his claim as the best since Bradman
• The first big slump – 27 Tests from December 1981 to December 1984 where he averaged just 36
• A return to form, where in 33 Tests from December 1984 to January 1989 he averaged 52 and for a time reclaimed his position as the world’s best batsman
• The final decline – 17 Tests from 1989 to 1991 averaging just 34, and even seeing his career average drop below 50 at one point