The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Nintendo]

This is a delightful scorecard to look at:

QLD vs VIC Cricket Scorecard, Final at Brisbane, March 24 - 28, 2006

Live Cricket Scoreboard: Get Queensland vs Victoria Final, cricket scorecard, Pura Cup 2005/06 dated March 24 - 28, 2006.

www.espncricinfo.com

I believe it was the only time two double centurions in the same innings did not share a partnership.

And the match has meme potential as well with Watson retiring hurt.

Thank goodness the Dr Jekell version of Mitchell Johnson showed up for that match.

Nah didn't matter if Qld bowled Vic out or not, if the final was a draw Qld one due to some convoluted reason I can't recall rn.

 

[stephen]

Nah didn't matter if Qld bowled Vic out or not, if the final was a draw Qld one due to some convoluted reason I can't recall rn.

Yeah it was the rules that top of table wins if it's a draw.

 

[Slifer]

The only reason the 400 game did not result in a win for Windies is Lara himself, but not because he scored 400 but because he dropped a sitter to reprieve Flintoff. The revisionist false BS of people who did not watch the game and had no idea how it played out calling it selfish is always fun to watch though.

Thank you. And Lara is as unselfish a cricketer as they come. The man has what, 4 not out innings in his test career and goodness knows if he wanted to pad his stats, he could've done a Chanderpaul. Look at his 226 in Australia; he got bowled trying to hit out against McGrath, when he could've easily just poked away to remain not out.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Thank you. And Lara is as unselfish a cricketer as they come. The man has what, 4 not out innings in his test career and goodness knows if he wanted to pad his stats, he could've done a Chanderpaul. Look at his 226 in Australia; he got bowled trying to hit out against McGrath, when he could've easily just poked away to remain not out.

Can't for the life of me figure out why we're trying so hard to discount such an undeniably selfish act. Sure maybe the rest of his career doesn't gel with it and he was generally an unselfish player but this jumping through hoops to try and explain the 400 is just cringey.

Maybe if he had declared 100 runs earlier it would still have been a draw but there's a very good chance it would have been a win. He literally threw away a huge chance for a win for a personal milestone. It's unambiguous.

 

[Nintendo]

Can't for the life of me figure out why we're trying so hard to discount such an undeniably selfish act. Sure maybe the rest of his career doesn't gel with it and he was generally an unselfish player but this jumping through hoops to try and explain the 400 is just cringey.

Maybe if he had declared 100 runs earlier it would still have been a draw but there's a very good chance it would have been a win. He literally threw away a huge chance for a win for a personal milestone. It's unambiguous.

What was of more significance to the public in the west Indies and the moral of the team? Winning a dead rubber 5th test in a series that was already lost or having a player in there team break a record and enter territory that had never been seen before in test cricket?

I agree with the general argument your going for and any other time you'd be right, but in the Lara 400 case the "he should have gone for the win." argument doesn't mesh aswell imo.

 

[TheJediBrah]

What was of more significance to the public in the west Indies and the moral of the team? Winning a dead rubber 5th test in a series that was already lost or having a player in there team break a record and enter territory that had never been seen before in test cricket?

I agree with the general argument your going for and any other time you'd be right, but in the Lara 400 case the "he should have gone for the win." argument doesn't mesh aswell imo.

Yeah we've been over all this in the thread a few times

edit: but even though I don't buy it for a second, at least it's somewhat logical reasoning unlike some of the excuses being trotted out

 

[stephen]

Yeah it's pretty clear that Lara was pissed when Hayden broke his record and wanted it back. He took the opportunity when it came up and I don't blame him or hold it against him tbh.

 

[Slifer]

Can't for the life of me figure out why we're trying so hard to discount such an undeniably selfish act. Sure maybe the rest of his career doesn't gel with it and he was generally an unselfish player but this jumping through hoops to try and explain the 400 is just cringey.

Maybe if he had declared 100 runs earlier it would still have been a draw but there's a very good chance it would have been a win. He literally threw away a huge chance for a win for a personal milestone. It's unambiguous.

"The main reason I don't rate Lara as highly as I could. Just that 400 innings was so selfish. Didn't try to win the game (which they definitely could have, and probably would have, done) so he could go for a personal record"

With all due respect, you're the one holding one innings against him based on what you posted above. Which imo is flawed because for the vast majority of his career, Lara was extremely unselfish. That would be akin to calling Steve Smith a cheater based on that one incident that transpired in South African or Shane Warne a drug cheat etc.

 

[TheJediBrah]

That would be akin to calling Steve Smith a cheater based on that one incident that transpired in South African or Shane Warne a drug cheat etc.

And? A lot of people do just that.

Anyway, yeah it's just 1 innings, but it's pretty glaring and definitely fair to hold it against him.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Needs to be said, he deserves the record more than Hayden. Hayden bullied Zimbabwe and was dropped 4 times.

But if everyone had the same motivations Lara did it could be Clarke, or Warner, or Taylor with the record

 

[sunilz]

Needs to be said, he deserves the record more than Hayden. Hayden bullied Zimbabwe and was dropped 4 times.

But if everyone had the same motivations Lara did it could be Clarke, or Warner, or Taylor with the record

As you get closer to record, you start making mistakes due to pressure. It is not that simple.

 

[Victor Ian]

This might be 'unaustralian' (lol - as if we are all clones) but I think 400 was worth more than a win, considering the series was already well lost. When I'm two sets down in a 3 set game of volleyball I always go for the glory shots. I'll bet his team mates were supporting him to go for it instead of a meaningless win.

 

[honestbharani]

Its interesting that someone can still argue that they will hold an innings against a player and yet refuse to actually understand even 1% of the context of said innings. Actually, its not interesting, its just funny, and a bit sad.

 

[TheJediBrah]

As you get closer to record, you start making mistakes due to pressure. It is not that simple.

Absolutely, that's why I said "could" be. Definitely no guarantee that these guys will go from 330-odd not out to 400. A lot can happen in those 70 runs.

 

[Nikhil99.94]

Changed my all time xi abit this is my all time final xi thought for like a week and this is what the 3 xi look like -
1st xi
W.G grace(Vc)(7)
Hobbs
Bradman(c)
Smith
Hammond(6)
Sobers(5)
Knott(wk)
Larwood(3)
Marshall(1)
O rilley (4)
Mcgrath(2)

2nd xi
Hutton(c)(sorry for Hutton not being in the 1st xi but those 2 are the 2 greatest )
Barry
Kallis(6)
Headley
Pollock
Gilchrist(wk)
imran(vc)(3)
Hadlee(2)
Akram(5)
Warne(4)
Barnes(1)

3rd xi
Sutcliffe
Trumper
Lara
Tendulkar
Richards(c)
Ames(wk)
Miller(5)
Proctor(3)
Lillee(2)
Murali(4)
Ambrose(1)

 

[stephen]

Needs to be said, he deserves the record more than Hayden. Hayden bullied Zimbabwe and was dropped 4 times.

But if everyone had the same motivations Lara did it could be Clarke, or Warner, or Taylor with the record

From memory the drops were all after Hayden had hit the triple, but regardless I'm glad the record is held by someone scoring against a decent nation. Heath Streak was a decent bowler but the rest of the Zimbabwean attack was atrocious and they were playing at the WACA, which can be a very consistent pitch, even when it's bouncy.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

In my opinion even though it didn't break the record (except for right handers), Jayawardene's 374 (out) was more impressive than Lara's (x2) and Hayden's knocks. He did it in a win against an attack with Steyn, Ntini, and Nel and came in at 14/2 before he added a ridiculous 624 with Sangakkara. I see Boje bowled 65 overs none for 221.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

This was after SA only scored 169 in the 1st innings. They later batted again and scored 434 but still lost by an innings and 150 runs.

 

[JBMAC]

Changed my all time xi abit this is my all time final xi thought for like a week and this is what the 3 xi look like -
1st xi
W.G grace(Vc)(7)
Hobbs
Bradman(c)
Smith
Hammond(6)
Sobers(5)
Knott(wk)
Larwood(3)
Marshall(1)
O rilley (4)
Mcgrath(2)

2nd xi
Hutton(c)(sorry for Hutton not being in the 1st xi but those 2 are the 2 greatest )
Barry
Kallis(6)
Headley
Pollock
Gilchrist(wk)
imran(vc)(3)
Hadlee(2)
Akram(5)
Warne(4)
Barnes(1)

3rd xi
Sutcliffe
Trumper
Lara
Tendulkar
Richards(c)
Ames(wk)
Miller(5)
Proctor(3)
Lillee(2)
Murali(4)
Ambrose(1)

I can't see how your keepers are ATGs. Have you ever heard of Tallon(named by Bradman as the best of all time), Grout or Engineer. ALL three were far superior as stumpers in their time . Far above who you have chosen.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I can't see how your keepers are ATGs. Have you ever heard of Tallon(named by Bradman as the best of all time), Grout or Engineer. ALL three were far superior as stumpers in their time . Far above who you have chosen.

Gilchrist and Ames are probably selected on their batting rather than keeping skills, which is not necessarily a bad call. It reflects the modern tendency to pick your keeper on batting first, with keeping just a box that needs to be ticked sufficiently on the side.