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2nd greatest living cricketer

Who is the 2nd greatest living cricketer (behind Sobers)?

  • Total voters
    74
Victor Ian

Victor Ian

International Coach
Sanga isn't scoring much. Murali would make him his bitch. Or maybe bunny. Murali is not a **** like Sanga.
 
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subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
kyear2 said:
What makes a good captain though? How is that quantified? Wins and losses? Being liked or respected? A good tactician?
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I think the closest statistically you can gather is whether over time, how well your team progresses up the rankings.

Imran Khan took Pakistan from a mid-tier (4-6) to a top tier team (1-3).

Ganguly took India from a mid-tier to top tier team.

Border took Australia from a mid/bottom tier to top tier team.

Taylor took Australia from a top tier to undisputed No.1 team.

Ranatunga took Sri Lanka from a bottom tier to mid tier team.

This to me is the best way to tell if someone is a good captain, is if the team progresses with their captaincy or not. The rest is through the context, their leadership style, tactics, etc.
 
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subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
kyear2 said:
Despite how the intial question was raised, I do believe fielding is actually a secondary skill as well. And not only in the slips in tests, but in all forms of cricket these days.

So let's take Imran and Kallis out of it.

As a coach, what would you want more on your team, a great captain or a great cordon? I totally agree with TJB, outside of the crazy extremes the impact of captaincy is minimal. Lloyd was supposedly a much better captain than Viv, but results wise, there wasn't a drop off.

Getting the most out of your team is basically maintaining your own performance so you can set an example and lead from the front with credibility. And not being a dick so that when you speak, they listen. The rest you pick up with experience.

Additionally, we somewhat still by default give it to the best player. Even when we are picking ATG teams, isn't Bradman always the captain, almost as is by default.

And I know this one is likely just me, and possibly just a few others. But when picking teams, I factor in who the slip fielders would be and how best to get a good balance. While for captain I just choose the best one from the players already selected.

Plus let's be honest, we all armchair captain at home while watching matches and think we can do a better job, set a better field, rotate the bowlers better, while I can for sure say I couldn't catch a cold in the cordon. And slip fielding is up there with opening and wrist spin as among the toughest disciplines in cricket. The great ones just make it look easy.
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There was a drop off. Viv drawed a lot of series that were won in Lloyd's time.
 
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subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Lillian Thomson said:
Mike Brearley wrote in his book on captaincy that Clive Lloyd didn’t have a cricketing brain and was exposed when placed in charge of the limited Lancashire County XI.
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I think that is my point. If you are captaining a team of all-stars, your effect will be minimal as they will be expected to crush the opposition. But for regular teams, captains make a difference.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
subshakerz said:
I think the closest statistically you can gather is whether over time, how well your team progresses up the rankings.

Imran Khan took Pakistan from a mid-tier (4-6) to a top tier team (1-3).

Ganguly took India from a mid-tier to top tier team.

Border took Australia from a mid/bottom tier to top tier team.

Taylor took Australia from a top tier to undisputed No.1 team.

Ranatunga took Sri Lanka from a bottom tier to mid tier team.

This to me is the best way to tell if someone is a good captain, is if the team progresses with their captaincy or not. The rest is through the context, their leadership style, tactics, etc.
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Didn't those teams also get better players as time went along?

I'm not discounting captaincy, and also think coaching should get some credit, but at the end of the day you need good players to win.

I'm just looking at the WI teams, and to me our teams performances were always linked more to our talent, or lack there of, than whoever was the captain.
Coaching and player development probably contributes more and also factors into the locker room environment.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
kyear2 said:
Didn't those teams also get better players as time went along?

I'm not discounting captaincy, and also think coaching should get some credit, but at the end of the day you need good players to win.

I'm just looking at the WI teams, and to me our teams performances were always linked more to our talent, or lack there of, than whoever was the captain.
Coaching and player development probably contributes more and also factors into the locker room environment.
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It depends. It is easy to say 'better cricketers came and the team became better'. For example. the Pakistan team that toured India in 1980 was on paper stronger than the one in 1987 yet the latter won and the former lost.

Captaincy has a lot to do with building a team, ensuring talented cricketers are groomed, that the team gels together. In the subcontinent, a captain will also have a say in selection too. Imran Khan pushed for Abdul Qadir to return after he was left out of the team, for example.

Great players arent great from the get go. Great players, especially bowlers, usually give credit to supportive captains for their development, like Warne did with Taylor and Border. I know for a fact that spinners like Yasir Shah and Kaneria suffered under defensive captains like Misbah and Inzi who bowled them like stock bowlers.
 
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