2nd greatest living cricketer

[Burgey]

Papa Finn Knight will be fapping his head off at the news

 

[The Sean]

Criticising Imran's away average of 25 would be somewhat logical if he didn't have big hauls and sneaked away with a decent average taking 2/50 type figures at a low WPM. It's the exact opposite of that and if anything his stats are nerfed by an early no rounder phase where he played a lot of series away AND the batting all rounder years. The numbers don't flatter him by any stretch of the imagination. Guy took a ten fer in WI, England and Australia ffs. My braincells are still reeling from the Wasim got better because of fixers dropping dollies hot takes so I'll avoid getting into accounting for different phases of his career but CW doesn't treat him as a 37 average batsman so it's pretty stupid to count years 17-20 of his career in his away record when he wasn't a frontline bowler anymore too.

Yeah, this tallies with my view. I posted at length about Imran generally and his away record specifically in another thread, which I've copied below for people to ignore/discount at their leisure.

My view on the relative merits and rankings of the great fast bowlers tends broadly to match the CW community, but one of the exceptions is that I rate Imran higher than most – whereas he’s in most people’s top ten, he’s in my top 5 (and maybe even 3 or 4). It could be that I’m such a fan of his work and now so wedded to the idea that he should rank so highly that I handwave or make excuses for anything that shows otherwise, which is something that I suppose a lot of us do.

His home v away record is certainly more skewed than most of the other great quicks, though it’s always felt to me as much a question of circumstance than ability. As we know, Imran in the 1970s took a while to develop into the great bowler he became, and seven of his first nine Test series between 1971 and 1980 were away from home, which always had him playing catch-up from an away-average perspective. Despite that, he still produced big wicket-taking performances in Australia and the West Indies, and – while not official, of course – had a superb record in WSC.

He definitely then benefited from home advantage during his peak years as a bowler by playing more often in Pakistan than elsewhere, but it’s been noted often that Pakistan wasn’t necessarily a fast-bowlers’ paradise and his record there in the early- to mid-80s wasn’t just good, it was beyond phenomenal.

And even then, when given the chance away from home he was still brilliant – he had a very good tour to Australia, two superb tours of England and a fantastic series in the West Indies. He did well in Sri Lanka, too, though wasn’t quite as dominant as he'd been at home.

It also shouldn’t be forgotten that the knee injury which cut him down in 1983 came right in the middle of that extraordinary peak (he was on a run in which he averaged sub-20 for eight consecutive series in which he bowled). He toured Australia in 1983/84 but played just two Tests and bowled in neither of them. One of the great disappointments for Australian cricket fans (though probably not Australian batsmen) was that his knee injury meant we never got to see absolute prime Imran as a fast bowler in Australia in the way we did Malcolm Marshall the following summer or – at an even more epic level – Richard Hadlee the year after.

As I say, you could make similar arguments and/or refutations for or against any number of bowlers at about the same level and I get why many on here rate Imran fractionally lower than the handful of blokes at the very top. But for me, he’s right up there.

I spoke a bit about Imran’s away record in my previous post and wasn’t inclined to revisit it, but as I noted then I don’t think it’s as simple as just the over all career number. Even before he hit his prime, he had been a prolific wicket taker in both Australia (including a match-winning 12-wicket haul) and West Indies in the 1970s and – as I also noted – in those early years seven of his first nine Test series were away from home.

However, if we look at his away series between November 1979 and April 1988:

1979/80 in India – 19 wickets at 19.21
1981/82 in Australia – 16 wickets at 19.50
1982 in England – 21 wickets at 18.57
1985/86 in Sri Lanka – 15 wickets at 18.00
1986/87 in India – 8 wickets at 49.00
1987 in England – 21 wickets at 21.67
1987/88 in West Indies – 23 wickets at 18.09

That one anomaly in India in 86/87 aside (where he actually had an excellent series with the bat), that is a spectacular run of away performances over a significant period of time. And it could well have been even more impressive but for that knee injury which left a big gap between 1983 and 1985 and caused him to miss out on Australia in 1983/84 (he played two Tests and didn’t bowl at all) and New Zealand in 1984/85 (peak Hadlee v peak Imran may well have been one for the ages).

As I said previously, you can make arguments for or against so many of the great quicks when we try to rank them, but in Imran’s case I really don’t think just repeating “averaged 25 away” without any context is one of the stronger ones.

 

[kyear2]

I've never said Imran wasn't an ATG bowler, he's somewhere in the lower half of the top ten. I've said this.

Marshall
Steyn
McGrath

Hadlee
Ambrose

Lillee
Donald
Wasim
Imran / Garner / Holding / Trueman.

The last group is a bit of a toss up, but not in my top 5 and definitely not in the same class as the top 3.

I don't believe my rating of his is much different from others, at most a few places higher.

Sean makes some good points about the timing of his peak etc and than can account for some of it.

But everyone takes this as a personal attack, it's not. Everyone also pretends that I made up the rumors about the bottle tops and home umpiring advantage that he was said to have. I don't know how much of an advantage it had, but also can't be totally discounted.

All I'm saying is that if his numbers can be taken at face value, then there's absolutely no discussion. He's a top 5 player of all time, not only bowler and should be viewed along Bradman and Sobers by all. But outside of CW he really isn't and that's why and when I started looking at it more closely. And as criticised, mocked and insulted as I am about it, that's a genuine position that I have. No malice or ill intent, unlike the ad hominem posts and disingenuous nationalistic arguments that come back.

 

[Nintendo]

Where is shardul thakur option.

 

[honestbharani]

Where is shardul thakur option.

Lord does not partake in mortal polls.

 

[ankitj]

then there's absolutely no discussion. He's a top 5 player of all time, not only bowler and should be viewed along Bradman and Sobers by all

That's right

 

[trundler]

That's right

What Ankit should've said was "this but unironically"

 

[ankitj]

I actually don't understand how all the ex-players and cricket journalists not rate Imran as high as they do Warne or Viv Richards; 87 ***** out of 100 didn't vote for him in Wisden cricketer of the century poll. Every time I look at Imran's achievement my mind truly boggles at how someone can do so much in one cricketing career. It'd be absolutely fair to even put him above Sobers (@Prince EWS to agree). It gotta have to do with the fact that he didn't play for one of the Anglosphere countries who at the time dominated media attention.

His bowling peak was better than Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath, what-have-you with a superb away average of 25 (had to do it). He even averaged 50 with bat in last half of his career. He finished with stats that he did despite selectively opting out of tours to SL to preserve his fitness for tours to stronger test nations. He even has a claim to be one of the greatest leaders in Cricket starting a pace bowling revolution of sorts in Pakistan. Never lost a test series to mighty West Indies as a captain ... Oh and he lifted the world cup after returning from a retirement. Tangible plus intangible all combined, this is stuff of dreams.

I mean, if you'd dream to be a cricketer why'd you dream to be anyone but Imran Khan? Why @kyear2 ?

 

[Teja.]

It'd be absolutely fair to even put him above Sobers (@Prince EWS to agree).

I used to think this but after some detailed examination of his workload as batsman/bowler through his career, simultaneous performance figures, fluctuations in batting and bowling output over the years, I changed my mind and think Sobers is better by a reasonable margin even though Imran is a clear No.3.

 

[nightprowler10]

Marshall Wasim Murali and someone to bowl genuinely fast.

So Imran?

 

[nightprowler10]

I actually don't understand how all the ex-players and cricket journalists not rate Imran as high as they do Warne or Viv Richards; 87 ****s out of 100 didn't vote for him in Wisden cricketer of the century poll. Every time I look at Imran's achievement my mind truly boggles at how someone can do so much in one cricketing career. It'd be absolutely fair to even put him above Sobers (@Prince EWS to agree). It gotta have to do with the fact that he didn't play for one of the Anglosphere countries who at the time dominated media attention.

His bowling peak was better than Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath, what-have-you with a superb away average of 25 (had to do it). He even averaged 50 with bat in last half of his career. He finished with stats that he did despite selectively opting out of tours to SL to preserve his fitness for tours to stronger test nations. He even has a claim to be one of the greatest leaders in Cricket starting a pace bowling revolution of sorts in Pakistan. Never lost a test series to mighty West Indies as a captain ... Oh and he lifted the world cup after returning from a retirement. Tangible plus intangible all combined, this is stuff of dreams.

I mean, if you'd dream to be a cricketer why'd you dream to be anyone but Imran Khan? Why @kyear2 ?

From a storied career perspective, Imran is the closest cricketing equivalent of Michael Jordan imo. Especially with the retirement thing.

 

[nightprowler10]

unlike the ad hominem posts and disingenuous nationalistic arguments that come back

You can't really say this. Most posts have been made by Indian posters who are typically not very nationalistic about Pakistan.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

That Wisden Cricketer of the Century poll was **** of the worst kind. Some admitted they didn't vote for Sobers because he would get enough votes anyway to be second (if everyone had done that he wouldn't have got any votes at all ) so they chucked in a vote for a random favourite of their own that should have been nowhere near it. No one had the cheek not to vote for Bradman but the rest of it is completely ridiculous. Imran's 13 is luxury compared to Botham's 9, Kapil's 5 and Miller's 0. There was great excitement on CW at the time at Barry Richards not getting any votes.

 

[_00_deathscar]

From a storied career perspective, Imran is the closest cricketing equivalent of Michael Jordan imo. Especially with the retirement thing.

Also a bit of a ****?

 

[Teja.]

People have mentioned it but the sheer consistency of Imran's bowling peak is just ridiculous. Home and away, against every side he faced, he was a couple of leagues better than even a typical ATG level.

In the 35 tests he played in those 5 years (after deducting 2 years for injury where he did not play), he took 184 wickets @ 16 at 5.25 wpm. In the remaining 55 tests he played across his career, he took 178 wickets @ 30 @ 3.25 wpm.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

People have mentioned it but the sheer consistency of Imran's bowling peak is just ridiculous. Home and away, against every side he faced, he was a couple of leagues better than even a typical ATG level.

In the 35 tests he played in those 5 years (after deducting 2 years for injury where he did not play), he took 184 wickets @ 16 at 5.25 wpm. In the remaining 55 tests he played across his career, he took 178 wickets in 55 tests @ 30 @ 3.25 wpm.

View attachment 29546

What a GOAT

 

[Teja.]

Also a bit of a ****?

@nightprowler10 to give his thoughts on victory speech controversy. ?

 

[nightprowler10]

@nightprowler10 to give his thoughts on victory speech controversy. ?

Eh?

 

[trundler]

People have mentioned it but the sheer consistency of Imran's bowling peak is just ridiculous. Home and away, against every side he faced, he was a couple of leagues better than even a typical ATG level.

In the 35 tests he played in those 5 years (after deducting 2 years for injury where he did not play), he took 184 wickets @ 16 at 5.25 wpm. In the remaining 55 tests he played across his career, he took 178 wickets @ 30 @ 3.25 wpm.

View attachment 29546

I bet you can't explain the 4 run average difference between home and away games

 

[Teja.]

Eh?

IIRC, there was some drama about his 92 WC victory speech wherein he didn't adequately acknowledge his teammates but went right into talking about his cancer hospital.

EDIT:
I looked it up and it's hilariously self-centred. Transcript below:

"I would just like to say, I want to give my commiserations to the England team, but I want them to know that by winning this World Cup, personally, it means that one of my greatest obsessions in life, which is to build a cancer hospital, I'm sure that this World Cup will go a long way towards the completion of this obsession. I would also like to say that I feel very proud that at the twilight of my career, finally I have managed to win the World Cup. Thank you."

WTF