Dhoni v Gilchrist

[sunilz]

I have always been amazed at how many ODIs Sehwag got. Batting wise, he was most similar (at least in terms of role and output) to Gilly and Sanath, but they both had second strings far stronger than Sehwag ever had and yet, he played so many ODIs. Pretty amazing when you think that we literally had to ask Dravid to keep to basically accomodate someone like Sehwag at the top of the order.

Assuming Gilchrist and Jayasuriya didn't exist, which side Sehwag wouldn't have made as opener ?

 

[TheJediBrah]

Should have tried Sehwag in the middle-order more when his output opening was less than expected

Not like he was that bad anyway. He wasn't much worse than Gilly or Jayasuriya. Some would even say he was about as good.

 

[Flem274*]

Yeah it's easy to forget 35 and a strike rate of 70-75 was perfectly fine until the 2010s. Average of 40 was considered world class and 50 exceptional. Tendulkar averaged 44 and SR 86, and he's the GOAT opener.

Batting averages in ODIs now tend to fall in line with test match expectations, except we're seeing test totals in 50 overs not 150. This is as true with anything 200-299 as it is with 300+ since 200 used to be just below par with 250 being the "solid score" until about 2011.

Even now in world cups, 250 is not a fun chase with the heat on and an opposition who can bowl.

Shady's numbers were meant as a joke but look a solid ballpark expectation to me. Professional era openers like Gilly, Jayasuriya, Kirsten, Waugh, Astle, Trescothick, Anwar etc would all average more now.

I mean ODI batting strategy has certainly been refined. This isn't all down to pitches and bowler rotation. Batsmen now know to a greater degree what is possible. You see this in how the glue batsmen (Kohli, Smith, Root, Taylor, Babar and the like) structure their innings to ensure their side makes 280+ on a standard pitch or to chase something down. Compare how they bat to the absolute YOLOing of the early Chappell-Hadlee games, where one batsman fed strike and the other just swung at everyone not called McGrath, Bracken, Vettori or Bond.

 

[Spark]

There are more fudamental, structural changes too though, which have nothing to do with player skill. Not to go full boomer cricket analyst, but while bigger bats have had a marginal impact at most on Test cricket overall, it’s clearly totally changed the nature of all limited overs batting when you no longer need to really middle or time a shot properly to get a boundary or a six.

 

[honestbharani]

I am never a fan of assuming how people will play across eras. But my point on Sehwag was more about how India saw it as a worthy investment to have a player averaging 33 but striking at 98 or 100 at the top of the order. It is interesting when we place so much emphasis on averages here but an actual side persisted with someone who was putting up statistically average numbers at his primary and mostly, only, skill.

 

[OverratedSanity]

All this "please think about modern openers feelings " stuff is honestly bullshit. Dudes just close their eyes swing their big oak door and score hundreds every week. Half the games they play, the best fast bowlers arent even bowling because they have a sore pinky... its embarassing. Modern elite fast bowlers play like 50-60% of available ODIs whereas the greats of the past played virtually every game because they simply werent looked at as JAMODIs until the mid-late 2000s. Even if they were in test snobs' eyes, teams still played their best bowlers more often . And then you have the two new balls bullshit which has basically eliminated reverse swing from the game. But yeah we're supposed to buy that geniuses like Tendulkar and Gilchrist wouldnt demolish the scorecard with just as much if not in an even more dominant way

Modern ODI players are ****ing pussies who've frauded their way to ATG stats aided by all the above factor in addition to also being talented. They're a coddled bunch and deserve to be put in their own separate basket until the balance between bat and ball swings the other way like it has in tests. This is why the likes of Smith/Kane/Kohli/Root deserve a ton of credit for piling up the runs and getting ATG level stats in an actual tough era in the longer format. In ODI's though you have any random muppet walk out and score a run a ball 100 and still lose the game because that simply isnt impressive in the current context. The game has done an amazing job marketing itself to little kids who see big-bat-hits-ball-long-way and think these guys are doing something amazing. They're really not. If you really think ODI batting hasn't become insanely easy and massively inflated batting numbers you just haven't been paying attention.

It is absolutely disgusting. Thank god for tests.

 

[Flem274*]

All this "please think about modern openers feelings " stuff is honestly bull****. Dudes just close their eyes swing their big oak door and score hundreds every week. Half the games they play, the best fast bowlers arent even bowling because they have a sore pinky... its embarassing. Modern elite fast bowlers play like 50-60% of available ODIs whereas the greats of the past played virtually every game because they simply werent looked at as JAMODIs until the mid-late 2000s. Even if they were in test snobs' eyes, teams still played their best bowlers more often . And then you have the two new balls bull**** which has basically eliminated reverse swing from the game. But yeah we're supposed to buy that geniuses like Tendulkar and Gilchrist wouldnt demolish the scorecard with just as much if not in an even more dominant way

Modern ODI players are ****ing pussies who've frauded their way to ATG stats aided by all the above factor in addition to also being talented. They're a coddled bunch and deserve to be put in their own separate basket until the balance between bat and ball swings the other way like it has in tests. This is why the likes of Smith/Kane/Kohli/Root deserve a ton of credit for piling up the runs and getting ATG level stats in an actual tough era in the longer format. In ODI's though you have any random muppet walk out and score a run a ball 100 and still lose the game because that simply isnt impressive in the current context. The game has done an amazing job marketing itself to little kids who see big-bat-hits-ball-long-way and think these guys are doing something amazing. They're really not. If you really think ODI batting hasn't become insanely easy and massively inflated batting numbers you just haven't been paying attention.

It is absolutely disgusting. Thank god for tests.

ok

 

[TheJediBrah]

All this "please think about modern openers feelings " stuff is honestly bull****. Dudes just close their eyes swing their big oak door and score hundreds every week. Half the games they play, the best fast bowlers arent even bowling because they have a sore pinky... its embarassing. Modern elite fast bowlers play like 50-60% of available ODIs whereas the greats of the past played virtually every game because they simply werent looked at as JAMODIs until the mid-late 2000s. Even if they were in test snobs' eyes, teams still played their best bowlers more often . And then you have the two new balls bull**** which has basically eliminated reverse swing from the game. But yeah we're supposed to buy that geniuses like Tendulkar and Gilchrist wouldnt demolish the scorecard with just as much if not in an even more dominant way

Modern ODI players are ****ing pussies who've frauded their way to ATG stats aided by all the above factor in addition to also being talented. They're a coddled bunch and deserve to be put in their own separate basket until the balance between bat and ball swings the other way like it has in tests. This is why the likes of Smith/Kane/Kohli/Root deserve a ton of credit for piling up the runs and getting ATG level stats in an actual tough era in the longer format. In ODI's though you have any random muppet walk out and score a run a ball 100 and still lose the game because that simply isnt impressive in the current context. The game has done an amazing job marketing itself to little kids who see big-bat-hits-ball-long-way and think these guys are doing something amazing. They're really not. If you really think ODI batting hasn't become insanely easy and massively inflated batting numbers you just haven't been paying attention.

It is absolutely disgusting. Thank god for tests.

Great post. Would be hilarious for a hypothetical "ATG" side to see Roy and Guptill try opening against a bowling attack of McGrath, Ambrose and Wasim in a 90s style ODI

 

[Teja.]

Wish we had a 3-4 rpo WC like 1992 or 1999 now, would be great fun.

Not a coincidence that those WCs live on in public memory so much.

 

[Spark]

Wish we had a 3-4 rpo WC like 1992 or 1999 now, would be great fun.

Not a coincidence that those WCs live on in public memory so much.

Tbh it's a big reason why I honestly find a lot of women's ODI matches a lot more compelling as a sporting contest to watch than men's ODIs these days; the average scores are just much more reasonable and make for a more compelling contest rather than just a straight up arms race between boundary hitters.

 

[Flem274*]

2019 and 2015 world cups were great fun tbh

just wish my team actually won a 2019 wc game comfortably

 

[OverratedSanity]

2019 wc semifinal and final were brilliant games. Exposed frauds like Rohit and Guptill and Roy (and Kohli lololol ) while the greats like Kane, Taylor and Jadeja rose to the top.

These kind of scores were standard in the 90s and early 2000s.

 

[honestbharani]

Lol.. I agree modern LO cricket is even more of a batriarchy than cricket usually is, but remember the 94-2005 period was when any ball above the shoulder height was considered a no-ball. And the 15 over restrictions, especially with 2 catchers, gave a lot of advantages to openers of that time. The advantages are more for middle order batsmen, though, agreed.

 

[Flem274*]

2019 wc semifinal and final were brilliant games. Exposed frauds like Rohit and Guptill and Roy (and Kohli lololol ) while the greats like Kane, Taylor and Jadeja rose to the top.

These kind of scores were standard in the 90s and early 2000s.

I have to rescind my "Rohit is a fraud" perspective tbh. He's definitely a real test opener these days, even if he doesn't have the overseas runs to show for it yet. He's still a bit thick which is going to hurt him but his game for test cricket is really good now.

 

[OverratedSanity]

My second post was half joking, the first was full truth.

 

[Teja.]

If Viv debuted in 2010 and had identical stats from 2010-2021 to his first 11 years in ODIs (1975-86) without any standardisation, he'd still be the best batsman in the world by a distance.

Can someone standardise this brutality from 1975-1986 in terms of modern stats please. if Gilchrist is 40 @ 110, this must be about 70 @ 140 considering the run rates in Viv's era.

 

[The Sean]

If Viv debuted in 2010 and had identical stats from 2010-2021 to his first 11 years in ODIs (1975-86) without any standardisation, he'd still be the best batsman in the world by a distance.

Can someone standardise this brutality from 1975-1986 in terms of modern stats please. if Gilchrist is 40 @ 110, this must be about 70 @ 140 considering the run rates in Viv's era.

View attachment 29491

Those are just phenomenal numbers in that context.

Very strong honourable mention to Zaheer Abbas as well.

 

[honestbharani]

Those are just phenomenal numbers in that context.

Very strong honourable mention to Zaheer Abbas as well.

Would Zaheer have been the runaway best batsman in the world in ODIs if not for Viv?

47 @ 84 is very good even in today's game. But it puts into context what level Viv was playing at. He averaged a full 10 points more striking a full 6 points faster.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Kapil's SR too

Viv and Kapil seem to be the guys stats do the least justice to.

 

[Arachnodouche]

Tbf Richards was something of a wolf set amongst sheep. Bowlers of the time hadn't devised any tools to counter ultra-aggressive batsmanship, simply because it didn't exist on Richards' plane, and it's certainly to his credit that he exploited it. But I feel he'd still average more or less the same in the modern era despite all the allowances made to batsmen today. Which would still comfortably retain him as one among other ODI ATGs but not elevate him to a Bradman-like company of one.