The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[trundler]

lol so Miller's average should be bumped up because of his pre cricket life but Wasim having literal cheats and the worst fielding side in the world to contend with is an insignificant digression

 

[TheJediBrah]

lol so Miller's average should be bumped up

No. One. Said. That.

Jfc

 

[trundler]

Could've averaged more yada yada

But he didn't and he shouldn't get brownie points for could've.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Could've averaged more yada yada

But he didn't and he shouldn't get brownie points for could've.

Well **** me I was making a little comment about a player didn't expect to be jumped on by overly competitive ATG-average-comparison-obsessed enthusiasts.
Very, very sorry if anyone inferred thst I thought he should get "brownie points", whatever that is supposed to mean, my bad.

 

[ataraxia]

The thing about Miller is that it would make sense for his test average to be higher than his FC average, if he only cared about important games. That is not the case. It's 36 plays 48.

 

[honestbharani]

When columnists write about Miller CBF'd test matches, it is always true. But when columnists write about Wasim and/or Imran suffering from a poor slip cordon, it needs to be taken as lies by overexcited and biased writers.

 

[harsh.ag]

Did I say it's not possible?

This guy served active duty in WW2. He killed people and people tried to kill him. Who knows what he was going through at any stage. Definitely understandable why non professional sport wouldn't matter after that

Yeah, absolutely.

 

[mr_mister]

The thing about Miller is that it would make sense for his test average to be higher than his FC average, if he only cared about important games. That is not the case. It's 36 plays 48.

When he had Bradman and Lindwall in his side maybe wins in tests were a sure thing though

 

[TheJediBrah]

Yeah we are really overthinking this now. I doubt he took Tests less seriously than FC in general. Most likely pretty simply averaged different because of the different standard.

 

[ataraxia]

When he had Bradman and Lindwall in his side maybe wins in tests were a sure thing though

He only had Bradman for a couple of years and it surely wasn't an unbeatable side. It is a good point you make nevertheless, however when you look at the FC games he played, it's mainly Australians playing a county side or playing for a tier-above team in the Shield. So wins in FC games were for the major part more sure than test wins. And they mattered less of course.

(It is important to bear in mind that the Shield wickets of the time were very flat.)

 

[mr_mister]

interesting looking at Miller's batting that he got 3 tons in his second last series, against Windies in '55 (not including a final single test against Pakistan after the '56 ashes)

that really helped his record out

 

[The Battlers Prince]

interesting looking at Miller's batting that he got 3 tons in his second last series, against Windies in '55 (not including a final single test against Pakistan after the '56 ashes)

that really helped his record out

Yeah maybe, it only adds to the number of centuries.
His average coming in to that series was 36.2. His fifties were frequent enough, similar to Watto’s frequency.

 

[kyear2]

When columnists write about Miller CBF'd test matches, it is always true. But when columnists write about Wasim and/or Imran suffering from a poor slip cordon, it needs to be taken as lies by overexcited and biased writers.

I'm not disputing what you're saying, quite the contrary, though it would be difficult to estimate exactly how much of a statistical impact it would have made.

But that's not my point. A few years back I would have tried to highlight the importance of slip fielding and it's importance and role in successful teams and recall being roundly shouted down.

My basic point being that just as you factor in batting for at least a couple of your bowlers, and it's always handy to have a batting all-rounder on the team, it was just as useful to have a couple batsmen who are proficient if not great slip catchers on your team. Especially at least the guy standing at 2nd.

 

[honestbharani]

I'm not disputing what you're saying, quite the contrary, though it would be difficult to estimate exactly how much of a statistical impact it would have made.

But that's not my point. A few years back I would have tried to highlight the importance of slip fielding and it's importance and role in successful teams and recall being roundly shouted down.

My basic point being that just as you factor in batting for at least a couple of your bowlers, and it's always handy to have a batting all-rounder on the team, it was just as useful to have a couple batsmen who are proficient if not great on your team. Especially at least the guy standing at 2nd.

I totally agree with that part. The point is that in a couple of comparison threads recently, it seems to be taken for granted that such reports were not true but suddenly similar reports on Miller are taken as truth. That is the discrepancy that annoys me.

Of course, I rate Ambrose > Imran and McGrath > Wasim but I dont think I have to question the very real fact that they both had to bowl with the suckiest slips cordon imaginable for most of their careers.

 

[mr_mister]

Wonder if it's possible to go through all of the dropped catches off Wasim and calculate his adjusted average and wickets if his slip cordon was bumped up to Australia's catching % rate during his career

 

[TheJediBrah]

I totally agree with that part. The point is that in a couple of comparison threads recently, it seems to be taken for granted that such reports were not true but suddenly similar reports on Miller are taken as truth. That is the discrepancy that annoys me.

Of course, I rate Ambrose > Imran and McGrath > Wasim but I dont think I have to question the very real fact that they both had to bowl with the suckiest slips cordon imaginable for most of their careers.

I followed those threads closely and can't recall a single person saying that they were not true

Wonder if it's possible to go through all of the dropped catches off Wasim and calculate his adjusted average and wickets if his slip cordon was bumped up to Australia's catching % rate during his career

I said this in another thread but if you're going to go down this path and put this much importance on slip catching (which I'm not saying is wrong at all) then you need to do it consistently across the board.

You would have to considerably reduce your ratings of how good these Pakistan players were if they were so bad at catching that it makes this much of a difference. Are Mark Waugh and Mahela Jayawarene suddenly as good as Sachin Tendulkar because of how good they were in the slips?

Again not saying whether this is right or wrong, actually I've always thought fielding was underrated massively on this site by people making up their fantasy teams or ranking players.

 

[mr_mister]

Could be due to the lack of stats surrounding it


They should start recording catching percentage to go with catches

 

[kyear2]

I followed those threads closely and can't recall a single person saying that they were not true

I said this in another thread but if you're going to go down this path and put this much importance on slip catching (which I'm not saying is wrong at all) then you need to do it consistently across the board.

You would have to considerably reduce your ratings of how good these Pakistan players were if they were so bad at catching that it makes this much of a difference. Are Mark Waugh and Mahela Jayawarene suddenly as good as Sachin Tendulkar because of how good they were in the slips?

Again not saying whether this is right or wrong, actually I've always thought fielding was underrated massively on this site by people making up their fantasy teams or ranking players.

Not necessarily those two, but when it's close. Like Kallis, even without factoring in the bowling, or Smith over Tendulkar. Chappell, Lara (though he was very good but not quite spectacular), Hammond, Ponting etc all possessed that extra dimension to them that added tremendous value to the teams, and even more in an ATG team scenario. It's why Bobby Simpson is an automatic for my Aussie XI.

I know absolutely no one will agree but also why I think Sobers is my no. 1 ranked cricketer of all time. He was a top 3 or 4 batsman, seriously underrated left arm quick and absolute top tier brilliant at 2nd to the pacers and around the corner to Gibbs.
Also why Kallis has been sneaking into my AT XI.

Also for a more practical scenario, why I didn't like us using Cornwall, he was solid, but he couldn't make the special grab if needed, but he had be there to be hidden, and that's not what the slips are for. Jason, on the other hand will always be an automatic for me, and yes he has the odd lapse, and can definitely improve, but he pulls off some spectacular ones.

 

[kyear2]

Could be due to the lack of stats surrounding it


They should start recording catching percentage to go with catches

Really hard to do though, how do u rate not pulling in the half chances that the special ones did, vs a sitter.

I recall having some brilliant cordons and thinking it was an automatic once the batsman nicked. That quickly faded over time sadly, but I recall having a cordon of Lara, Hooper and Richardson/ Simmons, or a little further back. Lloyd, Richards, Richardson. Or even the ones the Aussies had that Shane was talking about this morning. Makes such a huge difference.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Not necessarily those two, but when it's close.

So like Mark Waugh, and the moderate upgrade that is Sachin Tendulkar...