• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
I’m pretty sure that if Keith Miller is mentioned often enough in any thread, I just automatically manifest. Though this is the first time I’ve ever heard of a bloke who frequently took the new ball and batted in the top 5 referred to as a bits and pieces player! :p

I should probably just go back through my old posts and copy/paste, because I’m unlikely to write anything now that I’ve not written before…

There’s no question that, relative to his immense talent, Miller under-achieved with the bat at Test level. That’s not to say he was poor – he has a good record and played some fantastic innings – but anyone who saw Miller in England in 1945 was sure they were watching the dawn of one of the all-time great batsmen. He was brilliant in the Victory Tests, and then playing for a Dominions XI at Lord’s later in the summer made 185 in 165 minutes in what is still considered one of the greatest innings ever played there.

At the time, he was very much a batsman with his bowling considered a surprising bonus, but of course as the years went on and bowling took on a greater role for him, it almost inevitably took the edge off his batting.

It was often said that he didn’t make runs if they weren’t needed and could have averaged more. While there is truth to that – his outlook on life and experience in the war meant that he took no pleasure in one-sided slaughters and there is of course that famous example in 1948 where Australia racked up 721 in a day and he allowed himself to be bowled first ball, saying “thank God that’s over” – I think that is also a little overstated. Miller made many valuable runs, but there were also plenty of occasions where the team was in trouble and he could have risen to the heights at crisis time, but didn’t. There’s also the Test to FC discrepancy – he hit seven FC double tons and averaged nearly 50, but his Test average was 37 with a top score of 147, which to me indicates the step up in quality too. That’s not meant to sound harsh, it’s just that even as a Miller fan-boy I don’t think he just gets a free pass for not averaging more.

Another thing to consider is where Miller batted. In any of the ATG exercises he gets picked to bat at 6 as the all-rounder, and yet he batted at number 6 just three times in 87 innings! Most of his career was spent at number 5, and when he wasn’t batting there he was at 3 or 4. It can’t have been easy playing as a bona fide top-order batsman and also a frontline fast bowler, and it must surely have had an impact too.
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
As for Miller’s bowling, he seems to have been incredibly highly rated by the men he played with and against, and who saw him close at hand. Hutton and Compton were both gushing in their praise of him, and Tom Graveney rated him a greater fast bowler than – among others – Davidson, Thommo, Tyson, Snow and Roberts.

Much is made of his relatively low wpm, but I think that needs to be taken in context. As well as playing in some very strong attacks where wickets were shared, Miller’s back injury that he picked up in the war and which plagued him throughout his career was a factor here too. Miller played several Tests where he didn’t bowl at all, and several more where he bowled just a handful of overs. If you look at the Tests Miller played where he was able to bowl more than ten overs for the match, his wpm is closer to 4 than 3.

Two things, however, make his bowling record particularly impressive. First, his average – he took his wickets very cheaply. Second, and even moreso, his record against the opposition’s gun batsmen – Miller’s % of top-order wickets is exceptionally high, giving further credence to the theory that he needed a challenge to perform at his best (strangely this seems to be more true for his bowling than his batting, when popular opinion has it the other way around). A bloke who can pick up three or four cheap, top order wickets every match (while also contributing fifty or sixty runs) is phenomenally valuable.

Perhaps Miller’s bowling average did flatter him just a little – it is after all better than that of Lindwall, Lillee, Holding, Walsh, Wasim and Waqar, and virtually identical to Steyn. But no moreso than just looking at his wpm out of context undersells him. He was a great fast bowler.
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
As for his all-round impact, far from considering him a bits-and-pieces contributor, I think he was a genuine match and series turner (but then I would, wouldn’t I? :)). I did a study a number of years ago on applying Man of the Match awards retrospectively from the very first Test match (which I was going to post here but I think it was during one of my long absences from the forum), and calculated that Miller would have been Man of the Match in seven of his 55 Tests, which is a very high ratio. For comparison, Botham was MoM 11 times in 102 Tests, Kapil Dev nine in 131.

Regarding series contributions, I think he was very good to genuinely exceptional in the following:

Home vs England 1946/47 – 384 runs and 16 wickets
In South Africa 1949/50 – 246 runs and 17 wickets
Home vs England 1950/51 – 350 runs and 17 wickets
Home vs West Indies 1951/52 – 362 runs and 20 wickets
In West Indies 1954/55 – 439 runs and 20 wickets
In England 1956 – 203 runs and 21 wickets

Even in England in 1948, while his overall tour and series averages might have been underwhelming, he actually made major contributions in four of the five Tests. And against South Africa in 1952/53 he’d had two excellent all-round Tests back-to-back in Melbourne and Sydney before injury unfortunately cut short his series early in the fourth Test.

A special mention should be made for the 1951/52 series against West Indies. The Windies had won 3-0 in England in 1950, and then Australia had beaten England 4-1 at home in 50/51, so the Australia v West Indies series was effectively a world championship. And Miller was by my reckoning a fair shout to be considered Man of the Match in three of those Tests. Imagine that today, with all the hype surrounding it (especially if it involved Australia, England or India) – the top two teams in the world face off in a five Test series, and one bloke is Man of the Match in three of them.

I’ll leave it to West Indies captain John Goddard to sum things up in the aftermath:

“Give us Keith Miller and we’d beat the world.”
 

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
This stuff (good word that) about Keith Miller reminds me of the time I said (primarily as a wind up, but with a hint of truth) that Ian Botham was the most gifted cricketer in history but didn't refine his skills in the nets or work at his fitness so his peak didn't go on beyond the natural peak of human fitness. It certainly brought the Imran, Kallis and Dev fan boys out - as if no realised they all had better career stats.
 

Flem274*

123/5
Thanks Sean.

Being an allrounder is a big job too. I know it sounds obvious, but Jarrod Kimber's video on Sam Curran where he discussed how long Pakistan invested in Imran Khan made me think about how many of the top allrounders were long term investments. Cairns and Flintoff are modern examples, then Kallis a little further back also had a slow start. Imran as discussed by Kimber, Hadlee took a wee while too and maybe Sobers as well?

Point being, they've got two full time jobs in test cricket so their full carrer stats will always have a couple more holes than specialists. Their peak stats once they're up and running are usually insane, which is why we love them and pick them.

Miller's a genuine gun quick who is also at least a test standard batsman. That's ****in' awesome. You could argue his era in general had a few gaps - amatuer, taken a bit less seriously, more whipping boys in each team - which allowed him to have such a glittering record despite his cbf moments, but you can only play the game in your time and he was one of the standout cricketers in an era that had the fruit loop averaging 100 in it, so I'd say he's pretty good.
 

Victor Ian

International Coach
This stuff (good word that) about Keith Miller reminds me of the time I said (primarily as a wind up, but with a hint of truth) that Ian Botham was the most gifted cricketer in history but didn't refine his skills in the nets or work at his fitness so his peak didn't go on beyond the natural peak of human fitness. It certainly brought the Imran, Kallis and Dev fan boys out - as if no realised they all had better career stats.
I think there is more than a hint of Truth. Botham's problem was that his career coincided with it being financially viable for him to have played past his physical peak, but not the following generation where they worked to extend their fitness. He is my all rounder when I pick a team on peak years.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Yeah, I do agree it is silly to compare an allrounder on one discipline with a specialist of that discipline. It helps to perhaps state how good some AR was when he did as well as a specialist or something but beyond that, it is pointless as the jobs and expectations are not the same.
 

Coronis

International Coach
As for his all-round impact, far from considering him a bits-and-pieces contributor, I think he was a genuine match and series turner (but then I would, wouldn’t I? :)). I did a study a number of years ago on applying Man of the Match awards retrospectively from the very first Test match (which I was going to post here but I think it was during one of my long absences from the forum), and calculated that Miller would have been Man of the Match in seven of his 55 Tests, which is a very high ratio. For comparison, Botham was MoM 11 times in 102 Tests, Kapil Dev nine in 131.
Would love to see that list if you still had it.
 

Nintendo

Cricketer Of The Year
Rest of the world looks stronger:

Johnny Bairstow
David Warner
Kane Williamson (c)
Ross Taylor
Ben Stokes
Jos Buttler (wk)
Andre Russell
Chris Woakes
Mitchell Starc
Trent Boult
Adam Zampa

Just realised there are no South Africans and the side needs one. Maybe Devon Conway for Warner.
Kane over root is insanity.
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Would love to see that list if you still had it.
So I've found it, as it turns out it's even older than I thought - I was putting it together in 2012! But the age doesn't really change anything, as any MoM awards since then are counted officially. My study was only to allocate MoM awards to those old matches which didn't have one, not to change any officially designated awards (even if I disagreed).

As it turns out, I made a mistake in my Miller recollection above - according to me, he was actually MoM in eight of his 55 Tests, not seven as I said.
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Regarding the above, I am just trying to tidy up the spreadsheet I was working on and will post results and discussion points from it separately.
 

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
So I've found it, as it turns out it's even older than I thought - I was putting it together in 2012! But the age doesn't really change anything, as any MoM awards since then are counted officially. My study was only to allocate MoM awards to those old matches which didn't have one, not to change any officially designated awards (even if I disagreed).

As it turns out, I made a mistake in my Miller recollection above - according to me, he was actually MoM in eight of his 55 Tests, not seven as I said.
Did you award one in the England v Pakistan Test at the Oval in 2006? I think that's the only Test Match in England since 1978 where MOM wasn't officially awarded.
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Did you award one in the England v Pakistan Test at the Oval in 2006? I think that's the only Test Match in England since 1978 where MOM wasn't officially awarded.
No, I've not altered any official decision (or non-decision) - though looking at that scorecard it'd be an interesting one because there are a few contenders. MoYo probably the favourite, but Imran Farhat scored at a blistering pace at the top of the Pakistani order, and the bowling of Mohammad Asif and Umar Gul on day one set up the Pakistani dominance.

Ultimately though, we don't know how it would have ended and because the match wasn't allowed to reach a conclusion, it's right that no award was or should be given.
 

Top