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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

Gob

International Coach
As far as I know no one on this thread has suggested that we must accept blindly any individual's evaluations of particular players, however distinguished that individual may be. That sounds like a straw man. For the record, I have disagreed with some of the assessments offered by players as great as Bradman and Sobers and writers as celebrated as Neville Cardus and E.W. Swanton. It is well known, for instance, that players often rank their own teammates higher than more dispassionate observers would.

An expert consensus is a very different matter indeed. If everyone or almost everyone who saw X and Y play agrees that X was a greater player than Y, and that X is one of the very greatest players of all time that information seems to me impossible to ignore. The expert consensus may, of course, be wrong, but I would be very careful about challenging it unless I had a good explanation for why so many observers got things so wrong.

My go-to example for this is usually Hobbs, since he is one of the three most universally admired players over the past century. Of the other two, very few really challenge Bradman's status, and I saw Sobers play many times, more than enough to make my own judgment. But Hobbs ... the stats may show that he scored 199 first class centuries at a highly respectable but not extraordinary average. But behind every stat there is a story. Hobbs's contemporaries stress that he only really exerted himself to amass runs when needed, that he was unequalled on a sticky wicket and that he could have scored a lot more runs if he had put his mind to it. These are things that do not show up in Stats Guru or its equivalents. And Hobbs is not the only player for whom the statistical record is not enough to explain his greatness. I could make similar claims about Dennis Lillee and both Barry and Viv Richards, to choose some other examples.

And what's the alternative? You Tube highlights? They are at best incomplete and even when available a very poor substitute. I agree that stats are indispensable for assessing players, but by themselves they are not nearly enough, especially when they are taken out of context. We need the backstory as well, and that tends to be found in match reports, players' memoirs and the like. It's difficult to take seriously any "analysis" that offers less.
Good post. I personally put on a lot of weight on what I saw from players but then again I only saw players from 96 onwards and I was only six years old then so I would have to wait till atleast 2002 till I could make an educated assessment on a player because that was probably when I could understand the game properly. For those who came before that, I'd have to use other modes and stats are amongst them. Personally I'd use stats as a guidance to not to make extra ordinary claims like Martyn better than Kallis although I enjoyed the batting of former immensely

Anyway as someone who saw Sobers and those who followed, I'd like to know your top 10 batters and bowlers
 

TheJediBrah

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Hobbs's contemporaries stress that he only really exerted himself to amass runs when needed, that he was unequalled on a sticky wicket and that he could have scored a lot more runs if he had put his mind to it. These are things that do not show up in Stats Guru or its equivalents. And Hobbs is not the only player for whom the statistical record is not enough to explain his greatness. I could make similar claims about Dennis Lillee and both Barry and Viv Richards, to choose some other examples.
Keith Miller would be another good example. His batting stats don't scream "ATG" but the general consensus was that he could have done nearly anything but didn't take cricket very seriously and would just get out because he dgaf
 

ataraxia

International Coach
Keith Miller would be another good example. His batting stats don't scream "ATG" but the general consensus was that he could have done nearly anything but didn't take cricket very seriously and would just get out because he dgaf
Miller wasn't an ATG bat.
 

Flem274*

123/5
As far as I know no one on this thread has suggested that we must accept blindly any individual's evaluations of particular players, however distinguished that individual may be. That sounds like a straw man. For the record, I have disagreed with some of the assessments offered by players as great as Bradman and Sobers and writers as celebrated as Neville Cardus and E.W. Swanton. It is well known, for instance, that players often rank their own teammates higher than more dispassionate observers would.

An expert consensus is a very different matter indeed. If everyone or almost everyone who saw X and Y play agrees that X was a greater player than Y, and that X is one of the very greatest players of all time that information seems to me impossible to ignore. The expert consensus may, of course, be wrong, but I would be very careful about challenging it unless I had a good explanation for why so many observers got things so wrong.

My go-to example for this is usually Hobbs, since he is one of the three most universally admired players over the past century. Of the other two, very few really challenge Bradman's status, and I saw Sobers play many times, more than enough to make my own judgment. But Hobbs ... the stats may show that he scored 199 first class centuries at a highly respectable but not extraordinary average. But behind every stat there is a story. Hobbs's contemporaries stress that he only really exerted himself to amass runs when needed, that he was unequalled on a sticky wicket and that he could have scored a lot more runs if he had put his mind to it. These are things that do not show up in Stats Guru or its equivalents. And Hobbs is not the only player for whom the statistical record is not enough to explain his greatness. I could make similar claims about Dennis Lillee and both Barry and Viv Richards, to choose some other examples.

And what's the alternative? You Tube highlights? They are at best incomplete and even when available a very poor substitute. I agree that stats are indispensable for assessing players, but by themselves they are not nearly enough, especially when they are taken out of context. We need the backstory as well, and that tends to be found in match reports, players' memoirs and the like. It's difficult to take seriously any "analysis" that offers less.
I actually agree on youtube highlights, and that's why I don't claim to have "seen" Viv Richards or whoever. I've seen lot's of Joe Root 36 (70), but youtube only shows the highs and lows of past players, rarely the middle ground (though you can get glimpses). It tends to be why I've started playing with naming teams I've seen and those I haven't in these threads rather than the conventional mix and and match.

I think everything you have said is a fair perspective, though it looks like we both take the opinions of others with a strong grain of salt tbh, which is basically what I'm saying we should do. Expert consensus is suspicious as well, since for example even in our own time it's trying to pretend Smith and Kohli are on the same level (or were before Kohli's slump). Give these people 50 years....

And yeah I'm not a stats guy, despite being pegged as one on this forum I think. I like to know someones results, and if something is leaping out that contradicts a narrative I will definitely raise it, but I'm definitely closer to CdG than Shiv Chanderpaul when it comes to my attitude to the game (love Chanders though, cricket needs more successful weirdos).
 

Chrish

International Debutant
“He could have scored lot more runs if he wanted” is usually horseshit logic. It’s like saying Sehwag could have averaged 70 had he been more careful instead of trying to smash every other delivery out of the park. Or Steyn would have had much lower economy rate if he didn’t always bowl full trying to find the outside edge.

Every player is different. Some are attacking while others are grinders. You can’t say player X would have better stats had he adapted the style of player Y.
 

TheJediBrah

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“He could have scored lot more runs if he wanted” is usually horse**** logic. It’s like saying Sehwag could have averaged 70 had he been more careful instead of trying to smash every other delivery out of the park. Or Steyn would have had much lower economy rate if he didn’t always bowl full trying to find the outside edge.

Every player is different. Some are attacking while others are grinders. You can’t say player X would have better stats had he adapted the style of player Y.
I don't think you understand the concept at all because those are terrible examples and completely different things. Sehwag wouldn't have averaged better if he was more careful, nor would Steyn if he bowled differently. They did what was best for them because of the type of players they were.

People said that Miller didn't care a lot of the time and would just get out and/or not try. He didn't take cricket very seriously at all, after literally fighting in the war. Completely different to just being an aggressive player who took a lot of risks.
 

TheJediBrah

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The stories I heard most were that he wouldn't do anything if the game wasn't up for grabs, or if it didn't matter. If his team were clearly winning he would oftentimes refuse to bowl. In general he didn't like to bowl unless he was really needed to. Maybe partly because he had back problems after crash landing during the war, but also a lot because if it didn't matter he didn't really care.
 

Chrish

International Debutant
I don't think you understand the concept at all because those are terrible examples and completely different things. Sehwag wouldn't have averaged better if he was more careful, nor would Steyn if he bowled differently. They did what was best for them because of the type of players they were.

People said that Miller didn't care a lot of the time and would just get out and/or not try. He didn't take cricket very seriously at all, after literally fighting in the war. Completely different to just being an aggressive player who took a lot of risks.
I don’t think you understand the concept at all about the post you are replying to. I wasn’t even replying to the post about Miller but point still stands. There is no proof that he would have achieved more had he “taken cricket more seriously” (whatever that means).

Sehwag was able to dominate bowlers due to his attacking approach. If he had tried to play like Boycott, that wouldn’t have worked. Similarly Miller perhaps achieved what he did because of carefree approach. If he had been like Smith (not sleeping at nights and trying to visualize batting/ bowling the next day), it may not have worked with this carefree persona.

But whatever carry on with these conjectures.
 

TheJediBrah

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I don’t think you understand the concept at all about the post you are replying to. I wasn’t even replying to the post about Miller
My mistake, but you can see why I would think that
but point still stands. There is no proof that he would have achieved more had he “taken cricket more seriously” (whatever that means).
This isn't a scientific analysis, not am I trying to convince anyone of anything. No one needs "proof" for anything. Take a chill pill bro.
Sehwag was able to dominate bowlers due to his attacking approach. If he had tried to play like Boycott, that wouldn’t have worked. Similarly Miller perhaps achieved what he did because of carefree approach. If he had been like Smith (not sleeping at nights and trying to visualize batting/ bowling the next day), it may not have worked with this carefree persona.

But whatever carry on with these conjectures.
ok?
 

kyear2

International Coach
As far as I know no one on this thread has suggested that we must accept blindly any individual's evaluations of particular players, however distinguished that individual may be. That sounds like a straw man. For the record, I have disagreed with some of the assessments offered by players as great as Bradman and Sobers and writers as celebrated as Neville Cardus and E.W. Swanton. It is well known, for instance, that players often rank their own teammates higher than more dispassionate observers would.

An expert consensus is a very different matter indeed. If everyone or almost everyone who saw X and Y play agrees that X was a greater player than Y, and that X is one of the very greatest players of all time that information seems to me impossible to ignore. The expert consensus may, of course, be wrong, but I would be very careful about challenging it unless I had a good explanation for why so many observers got things so wrong.

My go-to example for this is usually Hobbs, since he is one of the three most universally admired players over the past century. Of the other two, very few really challenge Bradman's status, and I saw Sobers play many times, more than enough to make my own judgment. But Hobbs ... the stats may show that he scored 199 first class centuries at a highly respectable but not extraordinary average. But behind every stat there is a story. Hobbs's contemporaries stress that he only really exerted himself to amass runs when needed, that he was unequalled on a sticky wicket and that he could have scored a lot more runs if he had put his mind to it. These are things that do not show up in Stats Guru or its equivalents. And Hobbs is not the only player for whom the statistical record is not enough to explain his greatness. I could make similar claims about Dennis Lillee and both Barry and Viv Richards, to choose some other examples.

And what's the alternative? You Tube highlights? They are at best incomplete and even when available a very poor substitute. I agree that stats are indispensable for assessing players, but by themselves they are not nearly enough, especially when they are taken out of context. We need the backstory as well, and that tends to be found in match reports, players' memoirs and the like. It's difficult to take seriously any "analysis" that offers less.
As Gob has mentioned, would really love to see your top 10 lists or opinions on what you have seen.

Especially interested in your opinions of Sobers batting.
 

Chrish

International Debutant
Miller and Bradman hated each other. Miller couldn’t stand Bradman’s ruthless professional approach to cricket while Bradman couldn’t stand Miller because of his not giving a f- cricket style.

Not sure how anyone could assume Miller would have benefited from the attitude he despised so much throughout his career.
 

TheJediBrah

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Miller and Bradman hated each other. Miller couldn’t stand Bradman’s ruthless professional approach to cricket while Bradman couldn’t stand Miller because of his not giving a f- cricket style.
You see the same thing in local cricket now. Some people take it way more seriously than others and get pissed off when someone's not trying as hard, or training as much, or living up to their "potential"

Not sure how anyone could assume Miller would have benefited from the attitude he despised so much throughout his career.
I don't know if he would have benefited as a person but statistically he almost certainly would have been a lot better. This wasn't the same thing as a player that plays a certain way like a Sehwag or McCullum and if they changed their game they wouldn't do as well.

It's a massive stretch to claim that his post-war carefree attitude to non-professional sport was an essential part of his ability and performance, or that he wouldn't have been as good if he was more professional or took it more seriously. Frankly I think that is a ridiculous concept.
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
It's a massive stretch to claim that his post-war carefree attitude to non-professional sport was an essential part of his ability and performance, or that he wouldn't have been as good if he was more professional or took it more seriously. Frankly I think that is a ridiculous concept.
Yeah, it is not at all possible that he would have fallen into depression if he took it more seriously. Human beings aren't complex.
 

TheJediBrah

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Yeah, it is not at all possible that he would have fallen into depression if he took it more seriously. Human beings aren't complex.
Did I say it's not possible?

This guy served active duty in WW2. He killed people and people tried to kill him. Who knows what he was going through at any stage. Definitely understandable why non professional sport wouldn't matter after that
 

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