England (and Wales) gloom, doom and recriminations thread

[Chubb]

I think part of the problem is the fact that English cricket is so dependent on private schools. Quite a few players with relatively limited natural talent get to the fringes of the first-class game simply because their parents could afford to put them in the nets with a good coach for hours and hours every week. Those players are playing right at their ceiling by the time they get into county cricket. Meanwhile there are genuine talents in club cricket who never play cricket at school and never get the same level of coaching, so never get to iron out the flaws in their technique.

Couldn't agree more. But the ECB doesn't care about it, so will never change. They think the rest of us are all too stupid to understand real cricket, so we have to have a special version that's dumbed down for us. The NZ system is so much better it isn't funny, just sad.

 

[SteveNZ]

Couldn't agree more. But the ECB doesn't care about it, so will never change. They think the rest of us are all too stupid to understand real cricket, so we have to have a special version that's dumbed down for us. The NZ system is so much better it isn't funny, just sad.

Haha, this is a good point. If you're inventing The Hundred, you've probably lost perspective on what you might claim to be important - ie the fortunes of your Test side. The ODI side will stay in reasonably good health, because those T20 skills that are being prioritised can transfer, plus the effect of being world champions.

I don't know if we have a 'system', per se, or certainly it's nothing revolutionary. If we're saying the English game is limited to private schools, the NZ game isn't far off that either. Of our XI in the World Test final, only Trent went to a co-ed public school in NZ (Conway, Wagner and de Grandhomme not schooled in NZ). Latham, Williamson, Watling, Taylor and Jamieson went to all boys' public schools, Southee and Nicholls to private boys' schools. That's a pattern that won't change in this country.

 

[Chubb]

Haha, this is a good point. If you're inventing The Hundred, you've probably lost perspective on what you might claim to be important - ie the fortunes of your Test side. The ODI side will stay in reasonably good health, because those T20 skills that are being prioritised can transfer, plus the effect of being world champions.

I don't know if we have a 'system', per se, or certainly it's nothing revolutionary. If we're saying the English game is limited to private schools, the NZ game isn't far off that either. Of our XI in the World Test final, only Trent went to a co-ed public school in NZ (Conway, Wagner and de Grandhomme not schooled in NZ). Latham, Williamson, Watling, Taylor and Jamieson went to all boys' public schools, Southee and Nicholls to private boys' schools. That's a pattern that won't change in this country.

I have very strong views about the superiority of the NZ state education system to the British state system in general but particularly with sports. I am very passionate about this issue and I appreciate not everyone shares my opinion.

The key point there is that the state boys' schools everywhere I have lived in NZ, eg Waitaki, Timaru, Southland, Wellington - they are all REALLY GOOD at sports - as good as the average British private school, and have access to things I never imagined a state school would have, being forced to attend a bog-standard comprehensive - not a terrible school, just an average one - myself. I believe this is also true of the girls schools too, at least from what I've seen in hockey.

There were kids at my school who could have been very good cricketers if they had the quality of coaching they get at private schools. I'm not saying they would have been professionals but they would have been much better than playing in the C Division of the Devon Cricket League.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Of our XI in the World Test final, only Trent went to a co-ed public school in NZ (Conway, Wagner and de Grandhomme not schooled in NZ). Latham, Williamson, Watling, Taylor and Jamieson went to all boys' public schools, Southee and Nicholls to private boys' schools. That's a pattern that won't change in this country.

Goes a long way to explaining why Boult is the coolest one.

 

[SteveNZ]

I have very strong views about the superiority of the NZ state education system to the British state system in general but particularly with sports. I am very passionate about this issue and I appreciate not everyone shares my opinion.

The key point there is that the state boys' schools everywhere I have lived in NZ, eg Waitaki, Timaru, Southland, Wellington - they are all REALLY GOOD at sports - as good as the average British private school, and have access to things I never imagined a state school would have, being forced to attend a bog-standard comprehensive - not a terrible school, just an average one - myself. I believe this is also true of the girls schools too, at least from what I've seen in hockey.

There were kids at my school who could have been very good cricketers if they had the quality of coaching they get at private schools. I'm not saying they would have been professionals but they would have been much better than playing in the C Division of the Devon Cricket League.

No, I appreciate that you have a very firm opinion on it. It's great.

I am an unreserved believer in quality education and I believe in the right to private schooling and that those state boys' schools have an integral place in our education system. Girls as well. I'll send my kids to them when the time comes. I know there's people who believe that private schooling turns education into a commodity and increases the equity divide, but that's only the case because a lot of schools are run really, really poorly and parents want better.

In terms of sports, I guess it is disappointing that professional sportspeople in NZ, certainly in regards to rugby/cricket/netball etc, will be largely siphoned through the same schools - the state single-*** and private schools. There might be the odd exception (two guys in the All Blacks from Fielding High, Trent from Otumoetai College etc) but it's going to be increasingly rare.

However, having said that, these students at the 'top' schools receive outstanding coaching opportunities, resources and exposure, and really are training as professionals before they even become so. There's an argument that it's not a great thing in terms of weight of expectation and those who don't make it, but it's clearly feeding our pro ranks with people who are ready to go.

 

[SteveNZ]

Apologies for hijacking the thread.

England is ****.

 

[Furball]

I think part of the problem is the fact that English cricket is so dependent on private schools. Quite a few players with relatively limited natural talent get to the fringes of the first-class game simply because their parents could afford to put them in the nets with a good coach for hours and hours every week. Those players are playing right at their ceiling by the time they get into county cricket. Meanwhile there are genuine talents in club cricket who never play cricket at school and never get the same level of coaching, so never get to iron out the flaws in their technique.

Would say that's an issue with pretty much every sport that isn't football in the UK.

I also wonder how many potentially elite players are just lost because people never have an opportunity to play cricket. Sporting talent is generally transferrable IMO; the kids who are the best at school at football are also highly likely to be among the best at pretty much every sport they try out and there must be a fair few kids who are good to a point at football but could potentially be elite sportsmen/women in other sports if they had the opportunity to play.

 

[Manee]

Would say that's an issue with pretty much every sport that isn't football in the UK.

I also wonder how many potentially elite players are just lost because people never have an opportunity to play cricket. Sporting talent is generally transferrable IMO; the kids who are the best at school at football are also highly likely to be among the best at pretty much every sport they try out and there must be a fair few kids who are good to a point at football but could potentially be elite sportsmen/women in other sports if they had the opportunity to play.

Yes, I think fast bowling has a huge amount of highly athletic people that miss out on it because they aren't exposed to it. I think often very athletic people just inherently know how to produce an effective bowling action.

 

[Uppercut]

If you're inventing The Hundred, you've probably lost perspective on what you might claim to be important - ie the fortunes of your Test side.

**** all the national teams IMO. The ECB should be about encouraging mass participation in cricket. Hopefully that leads to a good national side in the future, but if so then that's a bonus. If the Hundred gets people involved in the sport that wouldn't be otherwise then I'm all for it.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

One problem the ECB doesn’t have that is a big problem in some countries is getting spectators at Test Matches, even on a cold day in mid September. The Hundred is clearly a success so I don’t see it being moved from the peak holiday months.

 

[Adders]

If the Hundred gets people involved in the sport that wouldn't be otherwise then I'm all for it.

I don't disagree with the sentiment here, but wasn't that what T20 was for?

 

[SteveNZ]

Was The Hundred a success? And if so, why? Why is it different to the Vitality Blast? Why will it attract people that regular T20 hasn't/doesn't?

 

[Manee]

Was The Hundred a success? And if so, why? Why is it different to the Vitality Blast? Why will it attract people that regular T20 hasn't/doesn't?

It did attract lots of young people to the games. Unclear what aspect specifically did that.

 

[BoyBrumby]

It did attract lots of young people to the games. Unclear what aspect specifically did that.

My guess is it's a combination of games on free to air telly and people being desperate to get out and do something after 18 months of covid related indoors time more than any particular aspect of the format.

 

[Shady Slim]

**** all the national teams IMO. The ECB should be about encouraging mass participation in cricket. Hopefully that leads to a good national side in the future, but if so then that's a bonus. If the Hundred gets people involved in the sport that wouldn't be otherwise then I'm all for it.

surely on this one of the biggest issues for cricket there now is the paywall right? dunno if the long form is behind the paywall still, but if it is it’s just criminal imho

 

[Uppercut]

surely on this one of the biggest issues for cricket there now is the paywall right? dunno if the long form is behind the paywall still, but if it is it’s just criminal imho

The ECB is an institution that took part in Allen Stanford's T20 for 20, but I would still say that letting cricket go behind a paywall was their worst ever mistake. At this stage I don't think it's reversible though.

 

[grecian]

The 100 can not be included in our terrible Test batting, as it's just ****ing started and our batting has been appalling for a bit. Look I hate the EcB generally, but we can't blame the mess of schedules over the last two years on them, there's been a little thing called Covid, you may have heard of it.

But free-to-air is obviously the most important thing of this, as Uppercut says no coverage on free-to-air has been disastrous, if we had decided to do it with t20 at the start we'd be in a great position,and getting young people interested in cricket which they patently haven't been for decades, will mean more play it which will eventually help all our teams.

 

[Starfighter]

The 100 can not be included in our terrible Test batting, as it's just ****ing started and our batting has been appalling for a bit. Look I hate the EcB generally, but we can't blame the mess of schedules over the last two years on them, there's been a little thing called Covid, you may have heard of it.

Yeah, no. The scheduling is very much consistent with how it's been done prior and I don't think it would have been any different without the pandemic.

 

[grecian]

Yeah, no. The scheduling is very much consistent with how it's been done prior and I don't think it would have been any different without the pandemic.

How do you know how it had been done prior, the Hundred never existed prior.

 

[Starfighter]

How do you know how it had been done prior, the Hundred never existed prior.

'Is consistent with'.

You've seen how the ECB schedules stuff. Do you think they'd have done anything different?