England (and Wales) gloom, doom and recriminations thread

[Furball]

Primacy of FC cricket has an obvious and logical appeal to shore up the general health of test team. In the messy real world though, the evidence is tenuous.

Indian team is made up of IPL superstars many of whom haven't played a FC game (excluding tests/warm-ups) in years. Rohit last played a Ranji match in 2015 apparently. It has been longer for Virat.

The two guys who do get to feature in domestic FC relatively often, Pujara and Rahane, haven't shown the benefits over LOIs merchants like Rohit and Rahul.

Even though the format is different there's surely much more benefit to a player's overall development to playing a limited overs series away from home as opposed to domestic cricket.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Actually it is relevant to whether they should be able to dictate how the game's structured in England and Wales.

Not really. The ECB subsidise the Counties because without them there is no England team.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Just read that yesterday was the first time we've lost both openers for blobs in the same innings on home soil. CBA to check how many innings that is, but willing to bet it's comfortably into four figures.

Sigh.

It was 90 minutes of madness in the field that opened the door to defeat, but definitely the batters that rolled out the red carpet.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I don't think it is the 18 counties that are really the issue even if it is the go to argument whenever England struggle. The pitches and time of year that they play first class cricket is more the thing for me along with the more talented players naturally being funnelled into white ball cricket.

This is the smartest post ITT. Everything is suddenly a huge problem as soon as things go wrong. But in 2011 (or whenever England were doing pretty good) county cricket wasn't a huge problem.

County cricket being of a lower standard than some other domestic comps because of 18 teams has always been a thing. Focus on white ball batting in England over the last decade is the main culprit here

 

[Noumenon]

The point is not about players playing the formats once they made it to the test level. Its the formative years which is a struggle for English and Aussie players now, compared to India's players, at least pre-covid, when they could get a full season of Ranji in before the LO stuff started.

Not really. From their cricket hacks to ex cricketers, all of them have been going on and on and on about how little FC cricket the ENG regulars gave played.

 

[wpdavid]

This is the smartest post ITT. Everything is suddenly a huge problem as soon as things go wrong. But in 2011 (or whenever England were doing pretty good) county cricket wasn't a huge problem.

County cricket being of a lower standard than some other domestic comps because of 18 teams has always been a thing. Focus on white ball batting in England over the last decade is the main culprit here

I think this is is very fair, as was Pothas' original point. And being honest, there's a large part of me that loves the breadth and history of the CC and would hate to lose any part of it. But if we're being told that the quantity of T20 and 100 ball cricket is essential for the financial survival of the game, then it's fair game to ask other questions about how to move forward. Not just because of one bad day of course; we all know about the trend in players coming through the domestic system over the last ten years.

 

[Starfighter]

Funny thing about the number of county teams is I read for years about how India has too many FC teams and how they should cut down to 12 (and Pakistan has recently done something similar, ditching their two-team system). Now that they're clearly ahead of the other teams in a lot of conditions (basically anything expect those NZ like) the 27-team FC comp is not a problem anymore and may even be a strength.

 

[Line and Length]

- the question is how you structure the season around the Hundred.

Shouldn't that be - the question is WHY structure the season around the Hundred?

Answer? Money!

 

[Furball]

Shouldn't that be - the question is WHY structure the season around the Hundred?

Answer? Money!

Yes, I acknowledged that. It makes perfect sense to structure your domestic season around the premier limited overs competition.

 

[honestbharani]

Not really. From their cricket hacks to ex cricketers, all of them have been going on and on and on about how little FC cricket the ENG regulars gave played.

That is silly. I think the bigger issue is how little they play of it in proper season in their formative years.

 

[honestbharani]

Yes, I acknowledged that. It makes perfect sense to structure your domestic season around the premier limited overs competition.

Your issue is that it seems the next big domestic competition is The Blast and that means you knock off like the 2 months of your so-called summer to these two competitions and then you are back to square one. Add in the 1 day competition somewhere there too.

The answer is possibly to create an equivalent of the Duleep Trophy and see if you can play that as a competition that runs alongside The 100.

 

[wpdavid]

Funny thing about the number of county teams is I read for years about how India has too many FC teams and how they should cut down to 12 (and Pakistan has recently done something similar, ditching their two-team system). Now that they're clearly ahead of the other teams in a lot of conditions (basically anything expect those NZ like) the 27-team FC comp is not a problem anymore and may even be a strength.

So do all 27 teams play each other in all formats of the game? Or are they split into two or more divisions? Genuine questions as I know nothing about India's domestic system. 27 sounds a lot, but obviously India's population is massive and cricket is the dominant sport there.

 

[wpdavid]

Your issue is that it seems the next big domestic competition is The Blast and that means you knock off like the 2 months of your so-called summer to these two competitions and then you are back to square one. Add in the 1 day competition somewhere there too.

The answer is possibly to create an equivalent of the Duleep Trophy and see if you can play that as a competition that runs alongside The 100.

How does the Dupleep Trophy work?

 

[honestbharani]

So do all 27 teams play each other in all formats of the game? Or are they split into two or more divisions? Genuine questions as I know nothing about India's domestic system. 27 sounds a lot, but obviously India's population is massive and cricket is the dominant sport there.

It has gone through many iterations but the most recent one is that there is a Super League of 15 teams and a Plate League of 12 teams with promotion/relegation for 3 teams, I think. That 15 and 12 are also divided into two groups before they do the typical knock out stages between the groups.

How does the Dupleep Trophy work?

You get 5 zonal teams - North, South, East, West and Central. The players from respective FC teams of each zone become eligible for selection. Theoretically a higher standard of competition, but unsure of what level of team spirit and bonding will exist. Though I do know of a famous ex-international from India who said the zonal games were absolute highlights of the domestics back in the 80s and were very prestigious and the players got along very very well. There was even said to be a lot of sledging and slanging in the Duleep than the Ranji.

 

[Manee]

It has gone through many iterations but the most recent one is that there is a Super League of 15 teams and a Plate League of 12 teams with promotion/relegation for 3 teams, I think. That 15 and 12 are also divided into two groups before they do the typical knock out stages between the groups.

And my understanding is although you may see a good team or player in the Plate, it can generally be a quite low level.

 

[Nintendo]

Funny thing about the number of county teams is I read for years about how India has too many FC teams and how they should cut down to 12 (and Pakistan has recently done something similar, ditching their two-team system). Now that they're clearly ahead of the other teams in a lot of conditions (basically anything expect those NZ like) the 27-team FC comp is not a problem anymore and may even be a strength.

India's strength in a lot of conditions comes from there incredible A system and the coaches involved in that more then ranji, it's the reason a bowler with the talent of siraj was so good as soon as he came in. Lot of credit has to go to dravid for that, he has been phenominal with the u19 and A team guys.

 

[Uppercut]

But the tension in the English domestic system comes from having to balance player development with the need to attract the next generation of players to a minority sport. It's not really a trade-off India needs to think about.

 

[Noumenon]

But the tension in the English domestic system comes from having to balance player development with the need to attract the next generation of players to a minority sport. It's not really a trade-off India needs to think about.

No, the tension in India is convincing youngsters to gamble on cricket at the risk of ruining their entire career/life since there's no safety net, not even for the middle class.

 

[wpdavid]

But the tension in the English domestic system comes from having to balance player development with the need to attract the next generation of players to a minority sport. It's not really a trade-off India needs to think about.

Fair point. But there are ways of running something like the Duleep Trophy which doesn't actually restrict the number of professional players but does provide an incentive to push on and develop that side of their games. Maybe like state and grade cricket in Australia? Again, I don't know enough about how they do it there. And it would be interesting to know how the minor counties function in England and Wales.

 

[Uppercut]

No, the tension in India is convincing youngsters to gamble on cricket at the risk of ruining their entire career/life since there's no safety net, not even for the middle class.

Ha exactly. Completely different set of problems.