The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Fuller Pilch]

Doull was also man of the match in a very rare NZ test win in Pakistan.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

This is so compelling that I can’t wait for the argument that Srinath wouldn’t have played for England in the 90’s.

 

[bagapath]

India can finally field three competitive teams for dream match ups, I think. The B/C teams are not as good as the B/C teams of other major nations. But this is a huge improvement from the first century of Indian first class cricket where even the second team could not be put together.

India Team A

Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Tendulkar
Kohli
Dhoni + *
Kapil Dev
Ashwin
Bedi
Bumrah
Gupte

12th man: Ganguly

India Team B

Gambhir
Merchant
Pujara
Hazare
Viswanath
Mankad
Kirmani +
Kumble *
Zaheer
Srinath
Prasanna

12th man: Pataudi jr

India Team C

Sidhu
Rohit
Umrigar *
Vengsarkar
Laxman
Pant +
Jadeja
Harbhajan
Shami
Ishanth
Chandrasekar

12th man: M Amarnath

 

[Fuller Pilch]

This is so compelling that I can’t wait for the argument that Srinath wouldn’t have played for England in the 90’s.

Fraser, Gough, and Caddick are 3 good reasons
Dean Headley looked pretty good too.

 

[CricAddict]

There is a reason why there are not many ATG spinners from NZ. The pitches are way too favorable to the pacers. To compare with Srinath, we need to compare their records in the subcontinent since the current teams are being done in the subcontinent.

I don't have the numbers but I can bet Srinath will beat most of the Eng and NZ pacers by sc numbers.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Went too far with the troll I see

 

[Noumenon]

Once you recognize, and with good reasons, that conditions in cricket is the single biggest determinant of skills, performances and outcomes, then it's absurd to argue in the same breath over bald numbers and stats.

A seam bowler in NZ or ENG is expected to do the heavy lifting and therefore he will have meatier numbers. The current NZ pace duo, Southee and Boult, have mostly bowled on made-to-order pitches at home. And even after that, they average 28 and 29 compared to Srinath's 30. Difficult to make a case that either of them are better than Srinath.

That's like saying Venkatpathy Raju was vastly superior to Vettori given he averaged a full 5 runs less. Or that the difference between Swann and Ashwin is as vast as their averages. Obviously not true.

If I take a look at NZ bowlers with over 200 wickets, only Hadlee is ahead of Srinath.

 

[Daemon]

The current NZ pace duo, Southee and Boult, have mostly bowled on made-to-order pitches at home.

Don't think this is true. Not "mostly" anyways.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Once you recognize, and with good reasons, that conditions in cricket is the single biggest determinant of skills, performances and outcomes, then it's absurd to argue in the same breath over bald numbers and stats.

A seam bowler in NZ or ENG is expected to do the heavy lifting and therefore he will have meatier numbers. The current NZ pace duo, Southee and Boult, have mostly bowled on made-to-order pitches at home. And even after that, they average 28 and 29 compared to Srinath's 30. Difficult to make a case that either of them are better than Srinath.

That's like saying Venkatpathy Raju was vastly superior to Vettori given he averaged a full 5 runs less. Or that the difference between Swann and Ashwin is as vast as their averages. Obviously not true.

If I take a look at NZ bowlers with over 200 wickets, only Hadlee is ahead of Srinath.

Ok so Srinath > Boult, Southee and Wagner this should be more interesting

 

[Noumenon]

There is a reason why there are not many ATG spinners from NZ. The pitches are way too favorable to the pacers. To compare with Srinath, we need to compare their records in the subcontinent since the current teams are being done in the subcontinent.

I don't have the numbers but I can bet Srinath will beat most of the Eng and NZ pacers by sc numbers.

Exactly. Venkatpathy Raju averages 30 to Vettori's 36. Important to normalize numbers based on conditions otherwise you get funny results.

 

[Noumenon]

Ok so Srinath > Boult, Southee and Wagner this should be more interesting

And Vettori > Raju

 

[Noumenon]

Don't think this is true. Not "mostly" anyways.

How's it in any less true than Ashwin and Jadeja bowling in conditions friendlier to them?

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

NZ makes green roads.

 

[Flem274*]

mccullums triple against the greatest bowlers of all time just looks better and better when you realise the deck was made to order for southee and boult

he scored a double in india too. i reckon he might be better than kohli.

 

[Flem274*]

How's it in any less true than Ashwin and Jadeja bowling in conditions friendlier to them?

have you seen a modern nz pitch outside of session 1 photos?

and ashwin/jadeja are a near perfect combo for half of the cricketing countries around the world and about 70% of indias games. have no real issue with them doing heavy lifting for india.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

And Stephen Fleming averaged 65 in Asia (including destroying Murali a couple of times) while Tendulkar only averaged 56 in Asia. Clearly better.

 

[Flem274*]

srinath was better than doull tho, probably. i just don't remember enough of either bowler, though i'll counter GAS's pace obsession by saying doull is solidly tall. when you're tall you can bowl slower. it's what keeps tim southee equal to trent boult despite being 10kph slower.

i'll note that if you're a 90s bowler and you're averaging more than 28 then you're a disappointment. decks were more favourable globally, the batting was crap, and anyone who was anyone had a sub-25 average and there were quite a few of them.

will end by stating if you're averaging closer to chris martin than courtney walsh then you shouldn't be making any all time sides.

 

[Noumenon]

Not surprised at the insecure, rabid lashing out. But are we really going to pretend bowling attacks are structured the same and strategize the same in places like NZ/ENG and India?

Don't think there's any escaping the fact that both Southee and Boult have a bowling average equal to Srinath after bowling half their career in NZ. They should be vastly superior, the way Ashwin and Jadeja have compared to, let's say, Vettori and Santner.

 

[srbhkshk]

Not surprised at the insecure, rabid lashing out. But are we really going to pretend bowling attacks are structured the same and strategize the same in places like NZ/ENG and India?

Don't think there's any escaping the fact that both Southee and Boult have a bowling average equal to Srinath after bowling half their career in NZ. They should be vastly superior, the way Ashwin and Jadeja have compared to, let's say, Vettori and Santner.

No, here's how it works -

1. Indian Spinners are worse than their averages suggest because they play on dust bowls.
2. Indian Batsman are worse than their averages suggest because they play on flat pitches.
3. Indian pacers are worse than their averages suggest because why will it be any different for them?

 

[Flem274*]

both Southee and Boult have a bowling average equal to Srinath

counting not your forte mate?

and im sure if we roll out the lawns the southee/boult average will equal the ashwin/jadeja one, but sadly 20 years ago this team came to nz and cried because there was grass on a cricket field, and in true trust fund baby fashion they threatened to take their (dads) bat and ball away if they had to play cricket on grass ever again.

state highway one or even better, an imitation of the surface of mars was perfectly acceptable for that child to play on. coincidentally of course.