Is Dhoni greatest OdI cricketer off all-time

[Daemon]

QdK is the only other opener+keeper who is close to the class of Gilly that I can think of. BMac was a pretty big step down but he's probably the next closest. Unless you're splitting Gilly's role into two (opener and keeper) and ignoring his keeping? Because ignoring Dhoni's keeping you get a batsman somewhere between Hussey and Bevan - excellent but not irreplaceable.

Can’t take into account Gilchrist’s keeping but then ignore it for Dhoni.

Dhoni has stiff competition from Buttler though imo.

 

[honestbharani]

QdK is the only other opener+keeper who is close to the class of Gilly that I can think of.

The problem is you keep limiting to opener-keeper. Forget the keeping, there are no middle order batsmen who are conclusively better than MSD in ODIs. There are many openers who are better than Gilchrist. End of.

 

[honestbharani]

Can’t take into account Gilchrist’s keeping but then ignore it for Dhoni.

Dhoni has stiff competition from Buttler though imo.

Yep, Buttler and if you feel you can have AB keeping, at a pinch. But like I said as a #5 or #6, he is unrivalled. Gilly as a #1 or #2, not so much.

 

[trundler]

Bevan tho

 

[stephen]

Can’t take into account Gilchrist’s keeping but then ignore it for Dhoni.

Dhoni has stiff competition from Buttler though imo.

Arachnodouche was doing that the other way around, which is what I was questioning.

Dhoni is way better than Buttler. Buttler is certainly up there and is the best current number 7/keeper but Dhoni was better with both bat and gloves.

QdK is a bit underrated as well and I'd probably pick him before Buttler right now. Though that's a bit rough to say when the guy is coming off a 150+ score in his most recent innings.

 

[stephen]

Yep, Buttler and if you feel you can have AB keeping, at a pinch. But like I said as a #5 or #6, he is unrivalled. Gilly as a #1 or #2, not so much.

Who other than QdK is an opening keeper- batsman in Gilly's class? I genuinely want to know. Because if he's the only one then really saying that Dhoni is unrivalled but Gilly isn't is technically correct (The best kind of correct) but disingenuous.

 

[stephen]

The problem is you keep limiting to opener-keeper. Forget the keeping, there are no middle order batsmen who are conclusively better than MSD in ODIs. There are many openers who are better than Gilchrist. End of.

Forgetting the keeping you have Bevan and de Villiers who were better at 5/6, Hussey who was in the same class and a number of other batsmen who moved up the order when they showed the same kind of batting talent that Dhoni possessed. Hell, Kohli is one from Dhoni's own team.

 

[stephen]

Matthews, Flintoff, Symonds and Stokes are all similar statistically to Dhoni at 5 with the bat. They also brought other skills to the table.

Having said that, few batsmen finished chases as well as Bevan or Dhoni if that's what you're getting at.

 

[trundler]

De Villiers is in a league of his own because he was just so versatile.

Dhoni and Bevan were the archetypal finishers though and imo those 2 are in a league of their own at #6. Look how the dominated the rankings (relative to other batsmen who batted as low). Stokes, Flintoff et cetera don't have the longevity of those 2. And Stokes has played in the roadiest era in the roadiest country. Hussey up there too probably.

 

[stephen]

De Villiers is in a league of his own because he was just so versatile.

Dhoni and Bevan were the archetypal finishers though and imo those 2 are in a league of their own at #6. Look how the dominated the rankings (relative to other batsmen who batted as low). Stokes, Flintoff et cetera don't have the longevity of those 2. And Stokes has played in the roadiest era in the roadiest country. Hussey up there too probably.

Hussey is a bit behind those two if you only look at his batting at 6. In fact, Dhoni and Bevan are still the top two run scorers batting at 6 and are the only two with 3000+ runs batting there.

 

[trundler]

Hussey is a bit behind those two if you only look at his batting at 6. In fact, Dhoni and Bevan are still the top two run scorers batting at 6 and are the only two with 3000+ runs batting there.

Yeah I think we just place different values on batting positions in ODIs. De Villiers was just supreme at #5. A century after coming in past the 30 over mark is just insane stuff. And he had an impervious technique. Would be an understatement to say he had the touch of genius about him. If Sehwag and G. Smith can average 50 in tests, he should've averaged 55 with that flawless technique and versatility tbh.

 

[indiaholic]

I would never have DeVilliers keeping in an ATG side. Way too untidy as a keeper to be dependable in a high stakes match against other teams from the galaxy.

 

[Arachnodouche]

QdK is the only other opener+keeper who is close to the class of Gilly that I can think of. BMac was a pretty big step down but he's probably the next closest. Unless you're splitting Gilly's role into two (opener and keeper) and ignoring his keeping? Because ignoring Dhoni's keeping you get a batsman somewhere between Hussey and Bevan - excellent but not irreplaceable.

Assuming that you can have only one of either Dhoni or Gilchrist in the side, moreover conceding that Gilchrist's athleticism standing back crosses out Dhoni's reflexes standing up, is Gilly at 1 more indispensable than Dhoni at 6? Who's more of a certainty to deliver at those positions?

 

[honestbharani]

Forgetting the keeping you have Bevan and de Villiers who were better at 5/6, Hussey who was in the same class and a number of other batsmen who moved up the order when they showed the same kind of batting talent that Dhoni possessed. Hell, Kohli is one from Dhoni's own team.

Bevan was definitely not better at 5/6 than Dhoni. Hussey was not at the same class, he was in the Bevan class. And Kohli is a top order bat. AB is really the only one who is in that class and there is room for both in the side. As a matter of fact, there is room for 3 in the lower middle order, given I can get overs out of Richards, Sachin and Jayasuriya in the top order. And Bevan and Hussey can bowl too. So I can easily play AB at 5, MSD at 6 and Hussey/Bevan at 7. Which means once again, in an ATG side, there are better options than Gilly for his slot than there are for MSD in his slot.

 

[honestbharani]

Matthews, Flintoff, Symonds and Stokes are all similar statistically to Dhoni at 5 with the bat.

Similar...

They are not, but even if we assume/imagine that, it does not refute my point. You don't have anyone who is actually better than MSD for his slot. There are quite a few for Gilly's slot. Again, end of.

 

[trundler]

Putting aside my trolling hate,

An ideal opening partnership would have a) a guy who can bat long and go big even if he's a slow starter eg Rohit, Anwar, Gayle and a guy who can give you quick starts reasonably often eg Jayasuria, Gilchrist, Warner (before the last WC at least), De Kock. Tendulkar of course was one of the fastest scorers ever and also tonned up quite often. So what do you want the other opener to do? Assuming Kohli, Richards, De Villiers and Bevan/Dhoni are there, there's both firepower and cake to come.

 

[honestbharani]

So what do you want the other opener to do?

I simply want the better batsman, not the faster scorer. So Jayasuriya/Lara.

 

[srbhkshk]

I mean technically given the strength of the middle order to follow, it's probably better to have an explosive opener, but I feel Rohit is sufficiently better than the others that I'd put him there anyway.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Wtf there's a reaction scorecard? What about all my likes over the last decade ffs, I had comfortably the highest number on the forum. (largely thanks to minnow bashing aka ***** likes but still)

But have those been era adjusted?

 

[_00_deathscar]

Putting aside my trolling hate,

An ideal opening partnership would have a) a guy who can bat long and go big even if he's a slow starter eg Rohit, Anwar, Gayle and a guy who can give you quick starts reasonably often eg Jayasuria, Gilchrist, Warner (before the last WC at least), De Kock. Tendulkar of course was one of the fastest scorers ever and also tonned up quite often. So what do you want the other opener to do? Assuming Kohli, Richards, De Villiers and Bevan/Dhoni are there, there's both firepower and cake to come.

Sachin is an ODI lock opening and as you mentioned he's a fast scorer plus can bat long (223 matches with an average of 50.31 @ 88.71 from 1994 onwards in the 2nd opening slot).
So there's only one slot left. Which is why Gilchrist doesn't make my XI (along with the fact that the difference in his and Dhoni's keeping in ODIs is marginal) although he is certainly in contention, and most definitely is no lock.
There are better batsmen than Gilchrist, and Sachin rules out the NEED for an explosive player there.