Is Dhoni greatest OdI cricketer off all-time

[Red]

Symonds as a batsman is of no value outside of #5. As a bowler, he is not good enough to be a proper 5th bowler. I have made this point elsewhere but to me, he is nowhere near the ATG ODI XI and is in the conversation for the second XI but still won't make mine.

Except at #6 where he averaged 41 at a SR of 101. But yeh, "no value". Lol.

And he probably isn't enough to be a sole 5th bowler in an ATG setting, but so often a captain needs someone to change the pace and jag a few medium pacers, especially when the batsmen have gotten used to the pace. It can be pretty valuable.

Most importantly, I can only assume that as an Indian supporter who are completely oblivious to the importance of fielding in an ODI unit, having not really seen its value in your own nation's teams. Symonds is the best ground fielder in the circle I ever saw. Australia's dominance in ODIs was partially built on the fielding of Ponting, Symonds, Clarke & Huss in the inner circle. I can see how, as an Indian supporter, you wouldn't see the value of this.

And Gilly over MSD in ODIs is just laughable.

Provide some substance to this maybe and it'd be worthwhile.

 

[stephen]

Mate you know this very well that you are not in position to ask others if they were following any cricketer's career. You only ever know anything about Aussie cricketers.

Yeah because nobody here has national biases. The truth is that as soon as anyone brings up an Australian being in contention (as one of four players ffs) for an AT XI here there are a few here who are saying it's ridiculous. It's the equivalent of karma whoring on Reddit. The fact is that trundler's comment was idiotic and said with such certainty.

And here you've repeated his mistake. But what do I expect from someone who admitted he doesn't even read my comments.

 

[stephen]

Original post:

Where are you getting your fifth bowler from? The thing is, Viv, Kohli, de Villiers, Tendulkar are all locks. That leaves three batting spots left - an opener, 6 and 7 and one of those needs to be able to bowl at least 3-5 overs a match.

You've picked Dhoni, who slots in at 6. So now you need to pick an opener and a 7. If you pick Lara to open then you're looking at Klusener, Pollock, Symonds or Kapil to bat 7. That's perfectly fine and you'll end up with a gun side. It does restrict your choices a little though.

But if you're going to pick a pure batsman to open you get a lot of players who were arguably as good or better than Lara who did it for the majority of their careers and not just a short window - Waugh, Anwar or maybe a modern opener like Warner or Bairstow. Heck, Watson is still a competitive option competing on batting alone.

That's probably why Lara is ignored a bit.

Quoted post:

Klusener, Pollock, Symonds or Kapil

And what trundler had to say:

One of those doesn't belong

This is how the rest of us feel about Symonds being crammed into an ATG XI.

This is so bad it's verging on breaking forum rules for baiting/ trolling.

Symonds as a batsman is of no value outside of #5.

And Gilly over MSD in ODIs is just laughable.

And this is somehow worse.

Up your game children.

 

[TheJediBrah]

In my experience on this forum, for every pro-Australian bias there are multiple posters whoa re even more excessively anti-Australian and their posting will reflect that. Important to remember that when interacting with some people on here @stephen @Red Hill

 

[ankitj]

Yeah because nobody here has national biases. The truth is that as soon as anyone brings up an Australian being in contention (as one of four players ffs) for an AT XI here there are a few here who are saying it's ridiculous. It's the equivalent of karma whoring on Reddit. The fact is that trundler's comment was idiotic and said with such certainty.

And here you've repeated his mistake. But what do I expect from someone who admitted he doesn't even read my comments.

Too much victim complex. Notice how one says anything against McGrath and Bevan in AT XI.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Original post:



Quoted post:



And what trundler had to say:





This is so bad it's verging on breaking forum rules for baiting/ trolling.



And this is somehow worse.

Up your game children.

Atleast trundler and hb think Symonds doesn't belong in an ATG xi because of actual cricket reasons. Not because they dislike Cricket Australia or something. That ring a bell?

National biases are present for everyone and ots hardly some dreadful accusation to throw around but you should be literally the very last person on this forum doing it. Have some self awareness.

 

[honestbharani]

Except at #6 where he averaged 41 at a SR of 101. But yeh, "no value". Lol.

And he probably isn't enough to be a sole 5th bowler in an ATG setting, but so often a captain needs someone to change the pace and jag a few medium pacers, especially when the batsmen have gotten used to the pace. It can be pretty valuable.

Most importantly, I can only assume that as an Indian supporter who are completely oblivious to the importance of fielding in an ODI unit, having not really seen its value in your own nation's teams. Symonds is the best ground fielder in the circle I ever saw. Australia's dominance in ODIs was partially built on the fielding of Ponting, Symonds, Clarke & Huss in the inner circle. I can see how, as an Indian supporter, you wouldn't see the value of this.



Provide some substance to this maybe and it'd be worthwhile.

RH, I did not want to do this argument again, but there is more than enough reason to state why Symonds won't cut it at an ATG ODI level.

The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

Yep, 2nd opener and 3rd pacer were a bit tough. Went with this from the available options Cook Strauss Bell Root Pietersen Stokes Prior Ali Broad Finn Anderson This but with Swann instead of Moeen. No Woakes for the 3rd seamer option?

www.cricketweb.net

The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

FWIW, if you isolate the top run scorers at 5 and 6 in ODIs, Symonds is arguably the best of the lot. Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

www.cricketweb.net

And of course, if we want to suddenly assume averaging 40 is a benchmark, it is surely an insult to have it pointed out to you why Dhoni > Gilly.

 

[TheJediBrah]

ftr I'm not talking about Symonds when bringing up bias, not considering Symonds for an ATG team is perfectly reasonable. There's been some laughable posts re. Gilchrist which are more what I'm referring to in this thread

 

[honestbharani]

Remember the time I argued that Bevan is a bonafide ODI ATG against @Red Hill ? @stephen is just being @stephen, really.

 

[ankitj]

ftr I'm not talking about Symonds when bringing up bias, not considering Symonds for an ATG team is perfectly reasonable. There's been some laughable posts re. Gilchrist which are more what I'm referring to in this thread

I don't care about AT XIs beyond a point but I'm curious if you rate Gilchrist > Dhoni in ODIs.

For me a difference of ~15 in batting averages is too big to be bridged by any other considerations.

 

[Red]

Too much victim complex. Notice how one says anything against McGrath and Bevan in AT XI.

Now hold on....

 

[TheJediBrah]

I don't care about AT XIs beyond a point but I'm curious if you rate Gilchrist > Dhoni in ODIs.

For me a difference of ~15 in batting averages is too big to be bridged by any other considerations.

I find them difficult to compare with the different roles and (slightly) different eras but no I wouldn't say I rate Gilchrist > Dhoni at all

 

[Red]

RH, I did not want to do this argument again, but there is more than enough reason to state why Symonds won't cut it at an ATG ODI level.

The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

Yep, 2nd opener and 3rd pacer were a bit tough. Went with this from the available options Cook Strauss Bell Root Pietersen Stokes Prior Ali Broad Finn Anderson This but with Swann instead of Moeen. No Woakes for the 3rd seamer option?

www.cricketweb.net

The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

FWIW, if you isolate the top run scorers at 5 and 6 in ODIs, Symonds is arguably the best of the lot. Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

www.cricketweb.net

And of course, if we want to suddenly assume averaging 40 is a benchmark, it is surely an insult to have it pointed out to you why Dhoni > Gilly.

Your "reasons" why Symonds wont cut it are just links to you saying you dont think he cuts it

I'm more than ok with anyone who would choose Dhoni > Gilchrist. I would never take issue with that. Personally I prefer Gilchrist.

None of it has anything to do with their averages, at all. Because Dhoni is very much like Bevan in that regard. Dhoni had 84 not outs from 297 innings in ODIs. Gilchrist had 11 not outs from 279 innings. I mean, seriously.

In terms of actual runs per ODI innings, Dhoni has 36, and Gilly has 34. There's nothing there. Gilly has a significantly higher SR than Dhoni.

Gilly is a significantly better batsman than Dhoni, make no mistake. The test averages/SRs of both batsmen bear testament to this better than anything. Nothing should be taken away from Gilly because he was willing to open in ODIs while Dhoni was happier coming in later.

 

[TheJediBrah]

And we all know that not outs boost averages right guys?

fmd

 

[Red]

And we all know that not outs boost averages right guys?

fmd

Are you fmd-ing at me? In a condescending way?

 

[Red]

Could a mod PLEASE capitalise the d/D in the thread title?

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

*popcorn time guys*?

 

[TheJediBrah]

Are you fmd-ing at me? In a condescending way?

absolutely

Could a mod PLEASE capitalise the d/D in the thread title?

That's what she said

 

[Red]

absolutely

Your argument for this makes no sense. Everyone knows that a batting average is total career runs/dismissals. People aren't stupid. So of course it's true that not outs don't "boost averages" in a true mathematical/statistical sense.

It's just that, in shorter forms especially, runs per innings batted is a far more valuable stat than batting averages. This is the entire reason I believe Bevan is seriously overrated.

When we're comparing Dhoni's/Gilchrist's value to their side, runs per innings batted makes far more sense than batting average.

So, you can keep your condescension.

 

[honestbharani]

Gilly is a significantly better batsman than Dhoni, make no mistake. The test averages/SRs of both batsmen bear testament to this better than anything. Nothing should be taken away from Gilly because he was willing to open in ODIs while Dhoni was happier coming in later.

Not really... If you wanna do apples to apples why not compare their averages and RPI when batting in top 3? You are using test batting stats to imply one is better than the other in ODIs is just laughable logic, coz then Rahane > Symonds as an ODI batsman. And opening was the EASIEST spot to bat in ODIs throughout Gilly's career, while MSD's was the toughest. And RPI does not mean **** in this comparison as they both do not have the same number of balls left in the innings when they start and therefore do not have the opportunity to bat as long.

Gilly's ODI record is middling at best and the SR does not make up for his lack of runs. And Dhoni was the better keeper as he could create opportunities Gilly could not even dream of. Funny how dismissals per innings is not brought up when comparing keepers and yet runs per innings is.