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Is Dhoni greatest OdI cricketer off all-time

h_hurricane

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
Jayasuriya's great legacy was that he sent shivers down the spine of opening bowlers in the night before a crucial match. As an Indian, I do not want to go back into that era (1996-2000) when he smashed us left, right and center. Painful memories.
 
vcs

vcs

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Sanath always murdered India right until the end. Remember that Asia Cup final in 2008 where Mendis cleaned us up. Think he scored a hundred in that match where they beat us by 250 odd runs as well.
 
trundler

trundler

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Jayawardena has an insane test record in India which is often overlooked. And Dhoni loved playing SL too.
 
A

Arachnodouche

International Captain
Never thought I'd see a comparison between Jayasuriya and Kapil as all-rounders. No problem having Jayasuriya playing as opening batsman, obviously one of the greats in that role; but his bowling was only ever handy in SL/sluggish wickets, wasn't it? Don't think he'd pose a serious challenge to anyone batting in an ATG line-up.
 
F

Fuller Pilch

Hall of Fame Member
h_hurricane said:
I used 3.5 as a benchmark for 1990s, not 4.0. In other words, Ambrose in 90s is as impressive as Pollock's record in 2000s.

Regarding Kapil, you could era adjust, but that doesn't change anything as he was an allrounder.

In other words, is there another all rounder in history who had ER/SR of 4.4/120 for a decade in a different era than Kapil ? I don't think so.
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Lance Cairns but he was the same era. He would earn crazy money in the IPL now - probably strike at 200.
 
trundler

trundler

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Kapil at 7 in an all time ODI team is like Miller or Botham at 6 in a test version. You could argue that they weaken the batting but realistically every side in history would take somebody capable of impacting matches like those guys in a heartbeat. It doesn't take anything away from their greatness.
 
stephen

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Pap Finn Keighl said:
With Sachin, Viv and Dhoni, that is not needed at all.
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Where are you getting your fifth bowler from? The thing is, Viv, Kohli, de Villiers, Tendulkar are all locks. That leaves three batting spots left - an opener, 6 and 7 and one of those needs to be able to bowl at least 3-5 overs a match.

You've picked Dhoni, who slots in at 6. So now you need to pick an opener and a 7. If you pick Lara to open then you're looking at Klusener, Pollock, Symonds or Kapil to bat 7. That's perfectly fine and you'll end up with a gun side. It does restrict your choices a little though.

But if you're going to pick a pure batsman to open you get a lot of players who were arguably as good or better than Lara who did it for the majority of their careers and not just a short window - Waugh, Anwar or maybe a modern opener like Warner or Bairstow. Heck, Watson is still a competitive option competing on batting alone.

That's probably why Lara is ignored a bit.
 
Red

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Migara said:
The issue is you only pick the stat you want to pick to show Kapil is superior. We are discussing a team, so we don't need to compare player - vs player, rather we compare player combos vs player combos. That is why we suggest Dhoni + and all rounder opening has better results than Gilchrist + Bevan.

Now picking on stats, you compare only ER when it is convenient, but totally refrain from mentioning relatively woeful bowling strike rate of Kapil, which is about 9 balls per wicket higher than the elite bowlers, and 15 more than that of Waqar. So No, Kapil was not an elite bowler of his generation.

Once again when it comes to 6/7 batting, you only pick on strike rates, totally refraining from mentioning batting averages. You ahve people like Azhar averaging 70 odd with SR of 100+ at the same position. If you re qualify the results 5 - 7 batting positions, and more than 20 innings played Kapil only makes the middle of the list according to averages. With the bat once again he does not qualify as an elite. Being able to slog a few doesn't make a batsman elite.
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Sure, I have time to address these issue individually:

Migara said:
issue is you only pick the stat you want to pick to show Kapil is superior. We are discussing a team, so we don't need to compare player - vs player, rather we compare player combos vs player combos. That is why we suggest Dhoni + and all rounder opening has better results than Gilchrist + Bevan.
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I don't really even know what this mean, so I won't address it.

Migara said:
picking on stats, you compare only ER when it is convenient, but totally refrain from mentioning relatively woeful bowling strike rate of Kapil, which is about 9 balls per wicket higher than the elite bowlers, and 15 more than that of Waqar. So No, Kapil was not an elite bowler of his generation.
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Leaving aside the fact he was an Indian pace bowler playing half his matches in India...

I am in no way saying he is the best bowler in his generation. But he took more wickets in ODIs than anyone in the 1980s. He had an excellent economy rate. He's being selected in my ODI ATG XI because he is a frontline bowler who's economical and also more than capable of big explosive innings with the bat at 7. You literally said in your own post "we are discussing a team". He's an all rounder at seven. Capable of ten economical overs, a few wickets, and a explosive finish to an innings with the bat.

Migara said:
once again when it comes to 6/7 batting, you only pick on strike rates, totally refraining from mentioning batting averages. You ahve people like Azhar averaging 70 odd with SR of 100+ at the same position. If you re qualify the results 5 - 7 batting positions, and more than 20 innings played Kapil only makes the middle of the list according to averages. With the bat once again he does not qualify as an elite. Being able to slog a few doesn't make a batsman elite.
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I'm not even sure where to begin when discussing the stupidity in this. You (as you put it) "requalify the results" so that they include numbers 5 and 6, while I have Kapil batting at 7 in my team. How on earth does that even make sense? Of course number 5s are going to average more than number 7s in ODIs. How ridiculous. Kapil's job is to bat at the end of the innings with a high strike rate. His job isn't to make 100s and have a high average. His average and strike rate in the position I want him in confirm he's the guy for the job.
 
Pap Finn Keighl

Pap Finn Keighl

International Debutant
stephen said:
Where are you getting your fifth bowler from? The thing is, Viv, Kohli, de Villiers, Tendulkar are all locks. That leaves three batting spots left - an opener, 6 and 7 and one of those needs to be able to bowl at least 3-5 overs a match.

You've picked Dhoni, who slots in at 6. So now you need to pick an opener and a 7. If you pick Lara to open then you're looking at Klusener, Pollock, Symonds or Kapil to bat 7. That's perfectly fine and you'll end up with a gun side. It does restrict your choices a little though.

But if you're going to pick a pure batsman to open you get a lot of players who were arguably as good or better than Lara who did it for the majority of their careers and not just a short window - Waugh, Anwar or maybe a modern opener like Warner or Bairstow. Heck, Watson is still a competitive option competing on batting alone.

That's probably why Lara is ignored a bit.
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Lara was arguably greatest opener until the emergence of Sachin Tendulkar..with reasonable longevity of 4-5 years.

In tests, you will be fine with 4 specialist bowlers and one AR. But in ODIs its better to get 5 world class bowlers, few of them with batting abilities.

Sachin - Lara
Viv, kohli, AB
Dhoni, Kapil, Hadlee
Akram, Saqlain, Garner


Also i am not comfortable with Hadlee or Pollock at number 7, I want someone capable of chasing impossible targets if needed.
 
stephen

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
The Aus/SL side to take on that RoW side:

Gilchrist+
Watson
Ponting*
Sangakkara
Symonds
Bevan
Hussey
Starc
Lee
Murali
McGrath

Wanted more SL players but honestly couldn't include them for the sake of team balance. The only real way of doing so is to give sanga the gloves, drop Gilchrist and Watson to bring in Jayasuriya and Waugh. But that side would IMO be weaker.
 
Pap Finn Keighl

Pap Finn Keighl

International Debutant
stephen said:
The Aus/SL side to take on that RoW side:

Gilchrist+
Watson
Ponting*
Sangakkara
Symonds
Bevan
Hussey
Starc
Lee
Murali
McGrath

Wanted more SL players but honestly couldn't include them for the sake of team balance. The only real way of doing so is to give sanga the gloves, drop Gilchrist and Watson to bring in Jayasuriya and Waugh. But that side would IMO be weaker.
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McGrath's availability will be an issue.. because sometimes i prefer McGrath over Garner, better you find a Substitute for those occasions, Lillee may be.
?
 
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