The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread (white ball edition)

[vcs]

Tendulkar's bowling was ridiculously entertaining to watch. Very underrated and useful bowler for us in ODIs in the 90s. Used to get us so many crucial breakthroughs and even won us matches outright.

 

[CricAddict]

That's a great find haha. So VVS's love affair with the Aussies started early.

Kanitkar who is a batsman bowling part-time took 11 wickets in that match. Surprise.

 

[vcs]

I thought Tendulkar was a much better bowler than Ganguly, who IMO is one of the most overrated part-time hacks in the history of the game.

Ganguly was better in Tests. He bowled many useful spells when the ball was swinging around a bit.

 

[h_hurricane]

That's a great find haha. So VVS's love affair with the Aussies started early.

Absolutely. The early warning was there but Aussies ignored it. There was no hype about him (or Hussey for that matter). Probably, both were just treated as 2 of the many promising upcoming batsmen.

That Symonds innings was truly special and he had a bit of a reputation even at that time.

 

[ankitj]

Symonds is over-rated and under-rated at the same time right now in this thread. A place is 2nd ODI ATG XI looks about right. He has to play 6 or not play. He can't be a 5th bowler batting at 7. In the first XI, that 6th place already has heavy competitors in Dhoni, Bevan and ABDV.

It might not be apparent but I rate Symonds. This discussion has forced many of us to point out what he is not good at rather than focus on what he was awesome at.

 

[TheJediBrah]

The mistake is picking him at 7 and as 5th bowler. I don't hate it as much as the rest of you but it's definitely not his ideal position. As I said earlier if I'm picking him it's ahead of Bevan or Dhoni, depending on where the game is played. In Asia I'd keep Dhoni, but outside of Asia Dhoni's gone.

 

[ankitj]

I thought Tendulkar was a much better bowler than Ganguly, who IMO is one of the most overrated part-time hacks in the history of the game.

Although Ganguly was once the best batter and bowler on either side in a bilateral series with Pakistan.

222 runs in 5 innings at average of 62
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/batting/most_runs_career.html?id=751;type=series
15 wickets in 6 innings at average of 10.66
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/bowling/most_wickets_career.html?id=751;type=series

 

[Burgey]

lol thyey're crazy good numbers by any allrounder standards

 

[TheJediBrah]

Clearly some in the opposition backed him as leading wicket taker for the series

 

[h_hurricane]

I thought Tendulkar was a much better bowler than Ganguly, who IMO is one of the most overrated part-time hacks in the history of the game.

And yet, Ganguly has a record pretty much in the Symonds tier as a bowler. 100 wickets, averages around 38 and economy rate 5.06. Bowled on tracks not suited to his style of bowling.

Not a Ganguly fan by the way.

 

[harsh.ag]

Apparently it was a "joke"

Apparently both of you have massive chips on your shoulders

 

[_00_deathscar]

Would be a great contest. So happy to see you put 5 indians in the ROW team Wasn't there some argument in this thread or another one about this ?

I thought the (generic) argument (here on CW) was about lack of Australians in ATG ODI World XI?
If Australia are removed from the equation, and going by the same argument used, I think it's fair to have a number of Indians - won a couple, consistently reached latter stages of tournaments (couple of exceptions of course) since 1983.

 

[Daemon]

Symonds tier. Ok

During his career span, Symonds went for exactly 5 and over. During that period, bowlers with comparable ERs included: Agarkar, Brett Lee, Razzaq, Zaheer Khan, Kallis, Fernando, Pathan, Anderson, Klusener, Waqar, Styris, Cairns, Bravo.

Basically a **** load of good bowlers going for between 4.5 and 5.5 runs per over.

This ignores that he was bowling almost exclusively in the middle overs. It’s why Jadeja’s economy is so impressive.

 

[honestbharani]

Sachin and Sourav have won MOTM awards multiple times for their bowling. I really do not recall when Symonds ever did that. The fact is they opened the batting and hence often times they were not needed to bowl as India always had few other part time options, especially post 2000. But I honestly do not ever recall thinking Symonds' bowling was anywhere near as good as Sachin or Sourav's on their best days.

Its a simple point really. Symonds does not make it to an ATG ODI XI on any kind of merit, his batting nor his bowling were good enough.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Sachin and Sourav have won MOTM awards multiple times for their bowling. I really do not recall when Symonds ever did that. The fact is they opened the batting and hence often times they were not needed to bowl as India always had few other part time options, especially post 2000. But I honestly do not ever recall thinking Symonds' bowling was anywhere near as good as Sachin or Sourav's on their best days.

Its a simple point really. Symonds does not make it to an ATG ODI XI on any kind of merit, his batting nor his bowling were good enough.

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest that you didn't think that.

Though I understand how you must feel when stephen says he doesn't recall ever thinking that Tendulkar was much better than Mark Waugh

 

[Migara]

Symonds tier. Ok

During his career span, Symonds went for exactly 5 and over. During that period, bowlers with comparable ERs included: Agarkar, Brett Lee, Razzaq, Zaheer Khan, Kallis, Fernando, Pathan, Anderson, Klusener, Waqar, Styris, Cairns, Bravo.

Basically a **** load of good bowlers going for between 4.5 and 5.5 runs per over.

And, compare strike rates of them to Symonds.

 

[TheJediBrah]

And, compare strike rates of them to Symonds.

why would anyone do that

 

[Migara]

And yet, Ganguly has a record pretty much in the Symonds tier as a bowler. 100 wickets, averages around 38 and economy rate 5.06. Bowled on tracks not suited to his style of bowling.

Not a Ganguly fan by the way.

I am waiting to see how "Tendulkat / Jayasuriya bowling on spin friendly conditions" thingy used to describe similarities between stats of Ganguly and Symonds.

 

[Migara]

And if some one wants hitting power close to Symonds, but much better technique and better bowling, Angelo Mathews is there always.

 

[Migara]

This ignores that he was bowling almost exclusively in the middle overs. It’s why Jadeja’s economy is so impressive.

Ok, then the fact was ignored that Jayasuriya bowled many of his spells at the death and still have a good ER.

I am not sold on Symonds as No 7 or as 5th bowler. I'd rather have Kallis at #3 / #5, and have him as the 5th bowler. Flintoff is a good choice, but don't think he is as good as Kallis as an ODI cricketer. On Asian conditions, Jayasuriya or Kapil easily fits the bill.

And yes, there is Shakib Al Hasan too. When such talent is around why Symnonds?