The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread (white ball edition)

[harsh.ag]

This is such a dumb comment. It's part of the mix. Might as well say "I like how Tendulkar has to score runs every game to justify his place in the side"

See the followup with tjb below that comment.

 

[stephen]

Much, much better bat than he was a bowler. Decent bowler, but no better. But the only lower order bat I can think of who has any claim to ATG status. I rank him well above Kallis and Jaya of the guys in my batting list, and he is at least close to Twatto/Symonds quality. Nowhere near any of the bowlers in quality.

Then again, the fact that he was a lower order bat who bowled a lot of overs would make it fair to class him as a bowling AR.

It is an odd situation with him. He was the best bat in his team, but was only really good coming in late in the innings. Plus for most of his career, the next two best bats were internationalish pquality bowlers, so it was really easy to bat him low down.

Basically he was a much better version of Faulkner (remember when he could bat?)

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

I like Symonds the trundler, more than the offie.

 

[TheJediBrah]

This is such a dumb comment. It's part of the mix. Might as well say "I like how Tendulkar has to score runs every game to justify his place in the side"

Apparently it was a "joke"

 

[CricAddict]

Forget Symonds, Klusenar, Kapil, Imran etc. Get Jadeja in guys. You get everything from batting, bowling and fielding with sword swishing being a bonus.

 

[honestbharani]

This is such a dumb comment. It's part of the mix. Might as well say "I like how Tendulkar has to score runs every game to justify his place in the side"

Except the latter is true and happens far more often.

 

[CricAddict]

Symonds tier. Ok

During his career span, Symonds went for exactly 5 and over. During that period, bowlers with comparable ERs included: Agarkar, Brett Lee, Razzaq, Zaheer Khan, Kallis, Fernando, Pathan, Anderson, Klusener, Waqar, Styris, Cairns, Bravo.

Basically a **** load of good bowlers going for between 4.5 and 5.5 runs per over.

Waqar and Brett Lee would be seething seeing this list.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Except the latter is true and happens far more often.

Yeah it was a poor choice of wording from Red Hill. A more accurate analogy would be something along the lines of "I like how Tendulkar has to score 120+ every game to justify his place in the side"

shows how silly a comment it is

 

[h_hurricane]

Symonds tier. Ok

During his career span, Symonds went for exactly 5 and over. During that period, bowlers with comparable ERs included: Agarkar, Brett Lee, Razzaq, Zaheer Khan, Kallis, Fernando, Pathan, Anderson, Klusener, Waqar, Styris, Cairns, Bravo.

Basically a **** load of good bowlers going for between 4.5 and 5.5 runs per over.

But then, nobody is saying these bowlers to be included in ATG 1st XI except for Klusener who was a gun ODI all rounder (averaging under 30 with the ball and over 40 with the bat).

Waqar and Lee are in the mix for 2nd or 3rd ATG ODI XI just like Symonds.

 

[TheJediBrah]

But then, nobody is saying these bowlers to be included in ATG 1st XI except for Klusener who was a gun ODI all rounder (averaging under 30 with the ball and over 40 with the bat).

Waqar and Lee are in the mix for 2nd or 3rd ATG ODI XI just like Symonds.

Not exactly the point he's making though is it? They don't bat/field like Symonds as well. If Symonds was Symonds but bowled like Waqar, Lee, or even Agarkar, Zaheer Khan, Anderson etc. then he'd nearly be a shoo-in for the ATG XI.

Obviously he isn't as good a bowler as those guys but that's the comparison Red Hill was making by comparing their economy rates. Also it does further show how far off the mark your opinion, and that of more than a few others here, about Symonds' bowling is.

 

[h_hurricane]

The point is Symonds didn't have a good bowling average or a good economy rate. Many of those bowlers in the list had a good or decent bowling average and yet they are nowhere in the discussion for an ATG XI,rightly so. Symonds is much further down the pit. He neither took wickets at a decent rate nor was he economical. There is hardly any objective reason to pick him due to his bowling. His batting value depends on where he bats and how many overs he gets, so he isn't as valuable with the bat, not as much over and above pure bowlers as his batting average suggests. Most do not consider him good enough to displace Devilliers, Bevan or Dhoni.

To the point on his economy rate, Tendulkar, a far worse bowler than Symonds had an economy rate of 5.1. I believe you will not disagree that Sachin's best value as a bowler lies in not bowling at all.

 

[jimmy101]

Symonds tier. Ok

During his career span, Symonds went for exactly 5 and over. During that period, bowlers with comparable ERs included: Agarkar, Brett Lee, Razzaq, Zaheer Khan, Kallis, Fernando, Pathan, Anderson, Klusener, Waqar, Styris, Cairns, Bravo.

Basically a **** load of good bowlers going for between 4.5 and 5.5 runs per over.

I'm surprised you took that comment seriously. Btw your new avi rules. I love Patton & Faith No More, is that from the Ashes to Ashes film clip?

 

[CricAddict]

To the point on his economy rate, Tendulkar, a far worse bowler than Symonds had an economy rate of 5.1. I believe you will not disagree that Sachin's best value as a bowler lies in not bowling at all.

I don't think so. Tendulkar just stopped/reduced bowling after the shoulder injury. He was a decent bowler till then, same as Symonds.

 

[TheJediBrah]

The point is Symonds didn't have a good bowling average or a good economy rate. Many of those bowlers in the list had a good or decent bowling average and yet they are nowhere in the discussion for an ATG XI,rightly so. Symonds is much further down the pit. He neither took wickets at a decent rate nor was he economical. There is hardly any objective reason to pick him due to his bowling. His batting value depends on where he bats and how many overs he gets, so he isn't as valuable with the bat, not as much over and above pure bowlers as his batting average suggests. Most do not consider him good enough to displace Devilliers, Bevan or Dhoni.

To the point on his economy rate, Tendulkar, a far worse bowler than Symonds had an economy rate of 5.1. I believe you will not disagree that Sachin's best value as a bowler lies in not bowling at all.

Clearly, because they don't bat/field like Symonds. That wasn't the point he was making. Symonds wasn't as bad a bowler as you seem to think, and he's underrated by a lot of people here.

 

[CricAddict]

Symonds is over-rated and under-rated at the same time right now in this thread. A place is 2nd ODI ATG XI looks about right. He has to play 6 or not play. He can't be a 5th bowler batting at 7. In the first XI, that 6th place already has heavy competitors in Dhoni, Bevan and ABDV.

 

[h_hurricane]

I don't think so. Tendulkar just stopped/reduced bowling after the shoulder injury. He was a decent bowler till then, same as Symonds.

Tendulkar's bowling was more suited to subcontinental tracks. Playing away opposition, he took only 32 wickets in 147 matches at 58.

Btw, I saw his 5 wicket haul against Aussies from close quarters, lived only 2 miles away from the stadium. It was hilarious watching batsmen having no clue against the spinning ball. Bevan's dismissal was comical. Almost as if he wanted to go to the pavillion before the ball was bowled. The heat was unbearable and played a part though. Never seen a hotter day in my life.

 

[h_hurricane]

Talking about Symonds, my first memory about him is this match.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...est-australia-under-19s-tour-of-india-1993-94

The innings as well as the radio commentary in local language was highly entertaining. He was smoking every other ball out of the ground.

Laxman and Hussey too were part of this match and both played well, but I do not recollect anything about them at that time

 

[TheJediBrah]

re. Tendulkar's bowling, I think the stats paint a pretty accurate picture. He was definitely not quite as good as Symonds, but not that far off. I consider Tendulkar an underrated bowler as well. Similar to Jayasuriya however, his bowling really benefited from playing so much cricket on supportive Asian tracks.

Symonds was a moderate upgrade

 

[TheJediBrah]

I thought Tendulkar was a much better bowler than Ganguly, who IMO is one of the most overrated part-time hacks in the history of the game.

 

[vcs]

Talking about Symonds, my first memory about him is this match.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...est-australia-under-19s-tour-of-india-1993-94

The innings as well as the radio commentary in local language was highly entertaining. He was smoking every other ball out of the ground.

Laxman and Hussey too were part of this match and both played well, but I do not recollect anything about them at that time

That's a great find haha. So VVS's love affair with the Aussies started early.