The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread (white ball edition)

[bagapath]

I cant say for sure if kapil would be good to hold on to a permanent position in an ATXI. but at 6 or 7 he was such fun. averaging 25 @90+ SR and crossing 30 every four innings (10 fifties and 1 century) and usually providing great entertainment. and his bowling was always reliable in keeping the RR down...

 

[honestbharani]

Gun slip and outfielder as well... Most versatile great fielder of his time at least based on whatever I watched and read.

 

[honestbharani]

He was, but he wasn't bad down the order. IMO it's between him and Hussey at 7. Waugh and Gilchrist have the opener spots locked.

I have Hussey in my ATG ODI XI at 7. So its an easy choice for me between him and Watson. But I would also probably have Watson and Gilly open for the Aussie ATG ODI XI.

 

[stephen]

I have Hussey in my ATG ODI XI at 7. So its an easy choice for me between him and Watson. But I would also probably have Watson and Gilly open for the Aussie ATG ODI XI.

Watson is, I think, a bit underrated by Aussies and a bit overrated by non Aussies. A lot of Aussies confuse his test output with his ODI output. It doesn't help that his overseas record is much better than his home record (away+neutral average of 42, home average of 37, 2 hundreds at home vs 7 overseas).

 

[h_hurricane]

Gun slip and outfielder as well... Most versatile great fielder of his time at least based on whatever I watched and read.

There were youtube videos of India down under or something like that from mid 80s with Kapil effecting run outs from the deep. Had a really accurate throw. That catch off Richards in WC final is the crowing glory though. True Gladiator ...

 

[h_hurricane]

Even in his pomp, Klusener was pumping out quick fire forties.

Are you saying that someone who averaged 40+ over a whole career did so by scoring rapid forties in his peak ?

 

[OverratedSanity]

Are you saying that someone who averaged 40+ over a whole career did so by scoring rapid forties in his peak ?

Have you looked at the number of not outs? He has a point. The 1999 world cup was literally klusener getting 38*(25) or something close to that every single time he batted.

Don't agree with his larger point though. Klusener was seriously versatile with the bat. He even had success batting up the order at 3.

 

[h_hurricane]

Have you looked at the number of not outs? He has a point.

The 1999 world cup was literally klusener getting 38*(25) or something close to that every single time he batted.

Agree with the not outs part. But his not outs ratio is similar to Bevan's for instance.

 

[Bolo.]

Overs bowled per match by batting ARs:

Symonds, Viv: 5
Kallis: 5.5
Jaya 5.6
Twatto:5.7
Klusener:7.1

Bowling ARs:

Flintoff: 6.6
Imran:7.1
Dev:8.3
Pollock: 8.6

Obviously there is a huge range of factors impacting on the number of overs each bowled. But broadly speaking, the number of overs bowled does track the quality of the player. Jaya and Dev are the most obvious exceptions in each group, connected by the fact that they are the only two to have played for weak bowling teams.

I reckon its fair to say that the more overs a bowler sends down, the worse their record is likely to be, both due to bowling at more difficult times in the innings, and by being kept in the attack when getting stick, whether due to conditions, having an off day etc. If Viv was carrying a Pollock workload, it wouldnt surprise me to see him averaging well north of 40.

Flintoffs low overs is a big surprise to me. Makes me wonder if I overrate him a little, at least in contribution.

 

[stephen]

Are you saying that someone who averaged 40+ over a whole career did so by scoring rapid forties in his peak ?

He scored a grand total of two hundreds. And he averaged 33 when batting in positions 1-7. In the fifty odd innings he batted 8 or below he got half his not outs (27 Not outs in 49 innings) and averaged 64 despite never hitting a century there (tbf he hit 10 50s which is pretty absurd). And unlike Symonds who batted 5 for most of his good years, he slid up and down the order throughout his career.

Now I rate Klusener highly - he was an absolute beast, particularly during his peak. Arguably if he'd come in earlier in the 99 WC semi final SA would have won that cup. But he was more prone to lowish scoring not outs than some other batsmen due to the fact that he batted so low so often.

It probably makes him a good pick for an ATG side actually.

 

[stephen]

Bolo I'm surprised you list Klusener as a batting all rounder. To me he was more of a bowler first who also happened to be a beast with the bat rather than the other way around. Is he perceived as more of a batsman or bowler in SA?

 

[Bolo.]

Bolo I'm surprised you list Klusener as a batting all rounder. To me he was more of a bowler first who also happened to be a beast with the bat rather than the other way around. Is he perceived as more of a batsman or bowler in SA?

Much, much better bat than he was a bowler. Decent bowler, but no better. But the only lower order bat I can think of who has any claim to ATG status. I rank him well above Kallis and Jaya of the guys in my batting list, and he is at least close to Twatto/Symonds quality. Nowhere near any of the bowlers in quality.

Then again, the fact that he was a lower order bat who bowled a lot of overs would make it fair to class him as a bowling AR.

It is an odd situation with him. He was the best bat in his team, but was only really good coming in late in the innings. Plus for most of his career, the next two best bats were internationalish pquality bowlers, so it was really easy to bat him low down.

 

[ankitj]

Klusener's economy rate is quite ordinary.

 

[Migara]

Murali also took a 4 fer in the 2007 semi if anyone's interested

Warne's exploits against teams who play spin poorly is way too glorified. Murali was good against all teams, and some times decimated them with exploits like 7/30 against India. Mind you ****ing Indians who play spin in their sleep.

 

[harsh.ag]

Warne's exploits against teams who play spin poorly is way too glorified. Murali was good against all teams, and some times decimated them with exploits like 7/30 against India. Mind you ****ing Indians who play spin in their sleep.

Pakistan '99 weren't poor players of spin by any stretch.

 

[honestbharani]

Nah.. Pak mid 90s were poor against many spinners tbh. I remember in 1997 or something when Warne went to Pak and absolutely rolled them. They had trouble against him in Australia too. They also gave all 10 in an innings to Kumble. Strang got a 5-fer against them if I am not wrong too. They were a great team in the 90s but they surely had a weakness against quality spin more than any other Pakistan side I have seen.

 

[Migara]

Pakistan '99 weren't poor players of spin by any stretch.

Pakisthan was always poor against spin post 1990s.

 

[Red]

Why so ridiculous ? Mick Lewis went for 113 in that epic match vs SA, Rashid Khan had similar figures vs England in the recent world cup. Even Malinga, one of the best yorker bowlers ever, went for 96 in 7.4 overs in that 300+ chase vs India.

And yet, you think Symonds will somehow withstand the onslaught. If anything, he will consistently go for those kind of figures.

Lol. That Mick Lewis ODI was the ODI where almost 900 runs were scored in the 100 overs.

And ANDREW SYMONDS BOWLED NINE OVERS IN THAT SAME MATCH and had much better bowling figures than all of Lewis, Stuart Clark, Brett Lee, Jaques Kallis, Makhaya Ntini

 

[Red]

I motion we henceforth refer to ODI pie-chuckers as "Symonds-tier" bowlers.

EG: Malinga was world class when at his best, but in that 300+ chase vs India he definitely became Symonds-tier.

Symonds tier. Ok

During his career span, Symonds went for exactly 5 and over. During that period, bowlers with comparable ERs included: Agarkar, Brett Lee, Razzaq, Zaheer Khan, Kallis, Fernando, Pathan, Anderson, Klusener, Waqar, Styris, Cairns, Bravo.

Basically a **** load of good bowlers going for between 4.5 and 5.5 runs per over.

 

[Red]

I like how Symonds has to run someone out every game to justify his place in the side

This is such a dumb comment. It's part of the mix. Might as well say "I like how Tendulkar has to score runs every game to justify his place in the side"