The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[TheJediBrah]

Except that Graeme Pollock was still killing it in 90s charity games. And Barry Richards destroyed in the WSC and wherever else he cared to.

These examples don't really address the overall question at all

 

[harsh.ag]

Nothing can. You either trust a combination of your eyes and your brain and those of the experts, or you don't. A good place to start would be if it wasn't thought of it in terms of certainties of yes and no, but in terms of probabilities. They were x% likely to have gone on to become ATGs. For some, the x is 90. For some, the x is 50.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Nothing can. You either trust a combination of your eyes and your brain and those of the experts, or you don't. A good place to start would be if it wasn't thought of it in terms of certainties of yes and no, but in terms of probabilities. They were x% likely to have gone on to become ATGs. For some, the x is 90. For some, the x is 50.

Well, obviously. That's exactly the point that you seemed to be trying to refute.

 

[harsh.ag]

Well, obviously. That's exactly the point that you seemed to be trying to refute.

No, trundler's "I find it very difficult to believe" didn't stem from using his eyes and brains, just the banal observation that great FC numbers don't always translate into great Test numbers

 

[TheJediBrah]

No, trundler's "I find it very difficult to believe" didn't stem from using his eyes and brains, just the banal observation that great FC numbers don't always translate into great Test numbers

I can understand your interpretation. What I got from trundler's post was that he's skeptical because, as you alluded to yourself, it's difficult to have any certainty with less evidence than other players from other countries and eras had to provide to fit the same category.

 

[trundler]

Did you really just compare Hadlee as a batsman to any of the other Fab Four or Procter? Poor from you. I have no problem with great players co-existing at the same time, seems to happen quite often actually, even in singular teams. England's greatest batsman and arguably greatest bowler played together, in fact most of their top batsman all had overlapping careers. Windies teams of the 70's and 80's, Australian teams of the 90's and 00's, even SA having Steyn, Kallis, Amla, Smith and AB all playing together. Also, wrt their first class stats at that time, the majority of test level cricketers all played in county cricket at the time, whereas players such as Miller and Waugh almost exclusively played in their domestic competitions at home.

No I said Hadlee wasn't much of a batsman compared to the others but still killed it with bat and ball in County Championship so there's that. Like I said, all great all rounders see a step down in at least one discipline at test level. It's not that I can't fathom great players having overlapping careers but that SA in the 80s being ATG galore seems a dubious claim to me. Barry Richards and Mike Procter don't exactly have stats that blow away some less than top tier players as I mentioned. And Waugh definitely played in a strong competition, as the Aussies here keep reminding us. So I'm sure there's a bit of Archie Jackson effect going on and I'm not ready to grant Richards a place alongside Hutton and Hobbs. Graeme Pollock was badass though.

 

[Bolo.]

No I said Hadlee wasn't much of a batsman compared to the others but still killed it with bat and ball in County Championship so there's that. Like I said, all great all rounders see a step down in at least one discipline at test level. It's not that I can't fathom great players having overlapping careers but that SA in the 80s being ATG galore seems a dubious claim to me. Barry Richards and Mike Procter don't exactly have stats that blow away some less than top tier players as I mentioned. And Waugh definitely played in a strong competition, as the Aussies here keep reminding us. So I'm sure there's a bit of Archie Jackson effect going on and I'm not ready to grant Richards a place alongside Hutton and Hobbs. Graeme Pollock was badass though.

Their stats do blow away the less than top tier players from the same era though. Greenridge is the easiest example, having played most of his cricket in the same team and role as Barry, but having averaged nearly 10 runs less. I dont think anyone other than Imran and Hadlee have comparable records to Procter. No shame in being only about as good as two of the ten best cricketers ever, particularly when considering that Procter wasnt getting a stats boost by playing some of his cricket in a weak FC country.

 

[ataraxia]

Their stats do blow away the less than top tier players from the same era though. Greenridge is the easiest example, having played most of his cricket in the same team and role as Barry, but having averaged nearly 10 runs less. I dont think anyone other than Imran and Hadlee have comparable records to Procter. No shame in being only about as good as two of the ten best cricketers ever, particularly when considering that Procter wasnt getting a stats boost by playing some of his cricket in a weak FC country.

Yeah Greenidge averages more in ODIs than Tests somehow (only 45 in ODIs anyway); I think he is overrated but still he's the greatest WI opener ever. B Richards is IMO the 5th or maybe 6th greatest opener ever behind Hobbs, Grace (look at his stats and compare them to others'), Hutton, Gavaskar, and perhaps Sutcliffe or Trumper. Procter's stats are incredible, especially considering that his bowling average was inflated by late-career spin. Don't really know enough about Pollock to make an informed judgement about him.

 

[marc71178]

Their stats do blow away the less than top tier players from the same era though. Greenridge is the easiest example, having played most of his cricket in the same team and role as Barry, but having averaged nearly 10 runs less. I dont think anyone other than Imran and Hadlee have comparable records to Procter. No shame in being only about as good as two of the ten best cricketers ever, particularly when considering that Procter wasnt getting a stats boost by playing some of his cricket in a weak FC country.

Didn’t Proctor play a large amount of cricket at the lower level in SA?

 

[Bolo.]

Didn’t Proctor play a large amount of cricket at the lower level in SA?

You mean for Rhodesia? His first season was played in the B league, which is when he got his 6 consecutive 100s, but after that they got promoted. A league was strong in his era- lots of quality players floating around and few teams to split them between.

 

[mr_mister]

Interesting. So his five tons was against park cricketers

 

[jimmy101]

Hardly. Unless you consider teams in the 2nd division of the County Championship to be also of "park" standard.

 

[mr_mister]

Hardly. Unless you consider teams in the 2nd division of the County Championship to be also of "park" standard.

Yeah, kinda..

 

[mr_mister]

Wonder if he was playing with a 'can't get out first ball' or 'no lbws unless it's plum' rule

 

[jimmy101]

Oof, some of the lengths taken to discredit Procter on this forum are borderline farcical.

Everyone look up a clip of Procter bowling on YouTube & get back to me!

 

[mr_mister]

Mate I'm just stirring. Never take anything I say seriously

 

[ataraxia]

But what if I don't take that seriously?

 

[TheJediBrah]

Oof, some of the lengths taken to discredit Procter on this forum are borderline farcical.

Everyone look up a clip of Procter bowling on YouTube & get back to me!

seems likely that he's overrated more than he's underrated, though as for anyone there's probably a mixture of both

But what if I don't take that seriously?

heh good one

 

[Bolo.]

More than a hint of truth in your stirring I think (for Rsa, not england). Theoretically, B league could have been decent, with (I'm guessing) 12 teams across both leagues combined across two countries. But I reckon B league must have been pretty shody- almost all amateurs, with all the top players playing A. Some the teams were B versions of the A sides, which makes it necessarily a step down in the way Div 2 isnt.

I reckon the structure of the competition does discredit this record somewhat. But it also makes the other 95% of his Rsa record more creditable, so its hardly a criticism.

 

[jimmy101]

seems likely that he's overrated more than he's underrated, though as for anyone there's probably a mixture of both

Dunno how he could be seen as overrated when every second person on this forum is all like "herp derp, he only played in 7 Tests.."

As marc would say, eyes not spreadsheets.