The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[trundler]

Younis was definitely better than Miandad though

 

[Starfighter]

CW has gone insane in the last few pages.

Miller = Border as a batsman
Zaheer=Walsh
Botham > Walsh as a bowler

Eagerly awaiting to hear someone rate Aamir Sohail as Javed Miandad's equivalent with the bat.

Yep, Soahil was as good as Miandad.

 

[mr_mister]

Miandad would have averaged 27 with neutral umpires in his home tests

 

[bagapath]

Do agree completely. It is a joke to say Botham was a better bowler than Walsh. Number of 5 wicket and 10 wicket hauls is such a poor metric to compare 2 players if that is the only metric used.

no it is not. Walsh did take 144 wickets in his last 30 tests at under 21 runs per wicket and finished strongly, masking many many years of solid but relatively unspectacular service to West Indies. but in his first 102 matches, the same as botham's career, he took 375 wickets, less than botham's tally of 383, and took 15 five-fers considerably less than botham's 27 many of which were batting line up bending efforts and most of them were solo hits too. I can reel of ten match winning series, turning bowling performances by botham (all of them before 1986 and most before 1983) but I would struggle to nominate performances from Walsh that shook cricket grounds like beefy's bowling exploits. for a whil, I would say between 1978-82, botham was the best bowler in the world. Walsh was in the top 5 for many years. don't remember him being the ultimate world beater at any point.

 

[h_hurricane]

no it is not. Walsh did take 144 wickets in his last 30 tests at under 21 runs per wicket and finished strongly, masking many many years of solid but relatively unspectacular service to West Indies. but in his first 102 matches, the same as botham's career, he took 375 wickets, less than botham's tally of 383, and took 15 five-fers considerably less than botham's 27 many of which were batting line up bending efforts and most of them were solo hits too. I can reel of ten match winning series, turning bowling performances by botham (all of them before 1986 and most before 1983) but I would struggle to nominate performances from Walsh that shook cricket grounds like beefy's bowling exploits. for a whil, I would say between 1978-82, botham was the best bowler in the world. Walsh was in the top 5 for many years. don't remember him being the ultimate world beater at any point.

All said and done, Walsh took 136 more wickets than Beefy and Ian would have to get them at an average of 13.30 to be Walsh's equal. A declining Botham played lesser and lesser in his 30s which protected his averages, and if he ever was to play 132 test matches, he would be averaging north of 30.

519 wickets at 24.4 looks mighty impressive. 383 wickets ar 28.40 not so much. It's n't even close one would think.

 

[vcs]

Walsh getting better as he got older has to be a point in his favour, not against him. I remember him having some awesome series around the turn of the century, even outbowling Ambrose. Think it was in England.

 

[OverratedSanity]

no it is not. Walsh did take 144 wickets in his last 30 tests at under 21 runs per wicket and finished strongly, masking many many years of solid but relatively unspectacular service to West Indies. but in his first 102 matches, the same as botham's career, he took 375 wickets, less than botham's tally of 383, and took 15 five-fers considerably less than botham's 27 many of which were batting line up bending efforts and most of them were solo hits too.

This isn't a good thing to bring up when botham's first 40 odd tests mask almost a decade of absolute garbage. 1982-1992 Botham averaged 37, which is more like Fidel Edwards than Courtney Walsh.

 

[bagapath]

of course botham was **** from 86 onwards. Walsh was never ****. he was always solid.
but he was a world beater for a few years. Walsh was never a world beater. he was always solid.

 

[harsh.ag]

"144 wickets in his last 30 tests at under 21" looks pretty world beating. Also, Botham's peak coincided with the stocks of international cricket depleted due to WSC. Not his fault and no one can say how much his figures would have differed, but it's a tiny asterisk.

 

[jimmy101]

Here's an interesting one. How many instances can you name an 'A' squad which would have a realistic chance at defeating the main team?

Australia - First Test vs South Africa 1997

Matthew Elliott
Mark Taylor*
Greg Blewett
Mark Waugh
Steve Waugh
Ricky Ponting
Ian Healy+
Paul Reiffel
Shane Warne
Michael Kasprowicz
Glenn McGrath

vs

Aus A

Justin Langer
Matthew Hayden
Stuart Law*
Damien Martyn
Michael Bevan
Darren Lehmann
Adam Gilchrist+
Brad Hogg
Andy Bichel
Jason Gillespie
Damien Fleming

 

[h_hurricane]

Here's an interesting one. How many instances can you name an 'A' squad which would have a realistic chance at defeating the main team?

Australia - First Test vs South Africa 1997

Matthew Elliott
Mark Taylor*
Greg Blewett
Mark Waugh
Steve Waugh
Ricky Ponting
Ian Healy+
Paul Reiffel
Shane Warne
Michael Kasprowicz
Glenn McGrath

vs

Aus A

Justin Langer
Matthew Hayden
Stuart Law*
Damien Martyn
Michael Bevan
Darren Lehmann
Adam Gilchrist+
Brad Hogg
Andy Bichel
Jason Gillespie
Damien Fleming

That A side had some amazing players who went on to have illustrious careers, but were they up for it in 1997 ? Not so sure.

 

[mr_mister]

That really is the who's who of Australia's 90s crop. Maybe Macgill over Hogg though

 

[Slifer]

no it is not. Walsh did take 144 wickets in his last 30 tests at under 21 runs per wicket and finished strongly, masking many many years of solid but relatively unspectacular service to West Indies. but in his first 102 matches, the same as botham's career, he took 375 wickets, less than botham's tally of 383, and took 15 five-fers considerably less than botham's 27 many of which were batting line up bending efforts and most of them were solo hits too. I can reel of ten match winning series, turning bowling performances by botham (all of them before 1986 and most before 1983) but I would struggle to nominate performances from Walsh that shook cricket grounds like beefy's bowling exploits. for a whil, I would say between 1978-82, botham was the best bowler in the world. Walsh was in the top 5 for many years. don't remember him being the ultimate world beater at any point.

Ok Bag, I'd like to see all of bothams atg performances against the best team of his time. Just one. And Walsh not being the best bowler is more a reflection of the bowling depth not his fault. When he got into the wi team he had to compete with the likes of MM, Ambrose, holding, garner Bishop etc. The fact that he broke into the team in the first place and stayed there is a testament to his greatness. Courtney didn't consistently take the new ball until later in his career. Prior to that he had to bowl into the wind and do the donkey work. I dont know how you expect Courtney early in his career to run through batting lineups, after his contemporaries had feasted. Anyway, what walsh did in india 94 compares to anything beefy did. Beefy > walsh the bowler no way sir. Might as well rate beefy above wasim as well. Statistically, Walsh is closer to Wasim than he is to Botham

 

[mr_mister]

The five fers comparison is a little silly yes. Walsh bowled alongside at least 2 top class test bowlers for nearly his whole career. Botham had nowhere near that level of competiton for wickets

Ignoring the obvious 80s pack, he had Ambrose and Bishop for most of the 90s. We say Bishop had a stunted career but he still played about 40 tests in the 90s. It makes sense that Walsh had his most productive years in the final 30 tests as Bishop finally relented in '98 so it was only him and Ambrose competing for wickets from 98-00

 

[h_hurricane]

The five fers comparison is a little silly yes. Walsh bowled alongside at least 2 top class test bowlers for nearly his whole career. Botham had nowhere near that level of competiton for wickets

Ignoring the obvious 80s pack, he had Ambrose and Bishop for most of the 90s. We say Bishop had a stunted career but he still played about 40 tests in the 90s. It makes sense that Walsh had his most productive years in the final 30 tests as Bishop finally relented in '98 so it was only him and Ambrose competing for wickets from 98-00

Those final 3 years tells us the bowler Walsh was. Even in his late 30s, very nearly 5 wickets per match at a great average. I find it a bit weird that peaking late is not given enough weight-age in CW as opposed to peaking early. Almost as if a late career flourish is a crime.

 

[trundler]

McGrath only had 2 more fifers than Beefy in a lot more matches too

 

[h_hurricane]

McGrath only had 2 more fifers than Beefy in a lot more matches too

And one less 10 for as well.

 

[trundler]

And one less 10 for as well.

Yeah I'm somewhat surprised by that but then I realize he had Warne at the other end.

 

[mr_mister]

And Mcdermott, Fleming, Reiffel, Gillespie, Lee, MacGill, Miller

There was never a third bowler on the level of McWarne but the supporting cast was always very solid

 

[stephen]

McGrath basically never bothered with the tail.

Botham was the bigger match winner and on field personality than Walsh but Walsh had a better career as a bowler.

This thread has made me rethink Walsh a bit. I've always seen him as a dramatic step down from Curtley but maybe I'm interesting him a bit. I'd still pick half a dozen other West Indies quicks over him but perhaps he was better than I was giving him credit for. Tbf I mostly saw him play in Australia and he was definitely a support act over here.