ODI ATG XIs

[_00_deathscar]

Sorry to take this back a few pages, but another problem with Tendulkar seems to be that he gets less good as his team improves around him. I fear in an ATG team he might only be an average player. I don't think his ego is big enough to succeed in team of seriously big ego's.

Or he just gets older...?

 

[_00_deathscar]

I wasn't necessarily dissing Tendulkar. I just felt he was superman until India developed a decent team, which just happened to coincide with his prime years and lesser output. My recollection is, in ODI, Tendulkar had no peer until about 2000 when many became his peer. I just wanted to put that doubt to bed. He's still in my team.

He had no peer until about 2000 pretty much worldwide because he was THAT good.
He had niggling injury issues, and there's no doubt he suffered a slump (as a player who has played for 20-ish years inevitably will have at some point for a few years).
He was still India's best batsman in the late 2000s in ODIs (Dhoni wasn't far off though) - obviously the 200*, the 175 vs Australia etc.
And then he faffed around for a couple of years too long in tests after winning the World Cup.

 

[trundler]

I wasn't necessarily dissing Tendulkar. I just felt he was superman until India developed a decent team, which just happened to coincide with his prime years and lesser output. My recollection is, in ODI, Tendulkar had no peer until about 2000 when many became his peer. I just wanted to put that doubt to bed. He's still in my team.

Tennis elbow happened. And then old age. Was man of the series in 03' before that.

 

[Victor Ian]

Looking at his average line he never dipped like I imagined. Just wrong memories.

 

[_00_deathscar]

I wasn't necessarily dissing Tendulkar. I just felt he was superman until India developed a decent team, which just happened to coincide with his prime years and lesser output. My recollection is, in ODI, Tendulkar had no peer until about 2000 when many became his peer. I just wanted to put that doubt to bed. He's still in my team.

You've said it yourself - you're looking at a purely coincidental chain of events that happen to coincide with both Sachin suffering some injury issues/slump in form, and getting older at the same time. In tests he had to go about completely reinventing himself as a batsman - he wasn't the gun player of the 90s but still a damn good one.

Without Sachin's being anywhere near as severe an injury/fall from heights, see also Ronaldo as a more extreme example. Up until the Inter Milan injury, was on course to possibly be considered the best player ever (or at the very least, certainly in the discussion) - still never seen anyone at that age with that much potential - no, not even Lionel Messi (and the Mbappe comparisons are laughable).
Two career threatening injuries in a row.
Comes back as a somewhat reinvented (and more rotund) player, still able to turn it on on his day, still world class, still one of the best strikers in the world but no longer the same player of the 90s.

 

[Borges]

He continued playing for a couple of years longer than a sensible person would have. And he should rightly get docked for it.
One could say, without fear of contradiction, that the earlier Tendulkar was a moderate upgrade over the Tendulkar at the fag end of his career.

 

[stephen]

yeah I know what a flipper is I just didn't get how it was relevant to him retiring from ODIs but still playing Tests

Because he often used the flipper to create doubt around trying to hit him. Without that tool he was never as good again. It was different in tests where he was more trying to take wickets. The batsmen are less aggressive and subtle variation comes more into play. In ODIs having that variety is far more important. How much worse would Hogg have been without the wrong un?

 

[Victor Ian]

He continued playing for a couple of years longer than a sensible person would have. And he should rightly get docked for it.
One could say, without fear of contradiction, that the earlier Tendulkar was a moderate upgrade over the Tendulkar at the fag end of his career.

A sensible person plays on in the game they love until someone stops them. I am hard pushed to downgrade a player for that.

 

[trundler]

He continued playing for a couple of years longer than a sensible person would have. And he should rightly get docked for it.
One could say, without fear of contradiction, that the earlier Tendulkar was a moderate upgrade over the Tendulkar at the fag end of his career.

Moderate upgrade >> ATVG

 

[Bolo]

Seeing as pretty much everyone is a moderate upgrade over everyone else, and sensible is such a definitive part of atg, maybe we should exclude all players who didn't have a ponderous decline from the team.

 

[Borges]

Because he often used the flipper to create doubt around trying to hit him. Without that tool he was never as good again. It was different in tests where he was more trying to take wickets. The batsmen are less aggressive and subtle variation comes more into play. In ODIs having that variety is far more important.

I think this is a very fair proposition.

The flippered Warne was a moderate upgrade over the unflippered Warne.; and the upgrade was even more moderate in the case of ODIs.

 

[Victor Ian]

ATG players who declined.
Tendulkar
Gilchrist
Viv
Ponting


Dhoni
Akram
Khan

It's a start

 

[morgieb]

ATG players who declined.
Tendulkar
Gilchrist
Viv
Ponting


Dhoni
Akram
Khan

It's a start

Pretty much every ATG bat bar de Villiers declined.

As for the bowling, Murali and Pollock?

 

[OverratedSanity]

ATG players who declined.

all of them

Some just retire before it happens to make it seem like they didnt

 

[Victor Ian]

I am currently entertaining the idea that there is a correlation between decline and greatness. You had to be pretty ducking good to sustain a decline at the end without being dumped. The longer your decline indicates how good you were.
Obviously can't include minnows like current Australia or we might be calling s marsh great.

 

[marc71178]

Lara - 1991-94 - Regular Opener
AVG 48 plus .
Phenomenal - Tendulkaresque

Small sample size.

 

[Bolo]

Pretty much every ATG bat bar de Villiers declined.

As for the bowling, Murali and Pollock?

Pollocks decline was tolerable. He dropped off from a career high ICC 3rd highest ranked bowler ever a year before retirement to being the 6th highest ranked bowler ever after his last match. Still a hundred points better than the second best RSA bowler ever. And as far as I know, the points gap between him and the second best bowler in the world was the highest ever after his last game as well.

 

[trundler]

McGrath took 300 in his first 64 and only 263 in his next 60. A (relative) decline in output as players get older is almost universal.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Small sample size.

Still good enough to be opening Batsman in AT 11 .
That way I can include all top 6 ODi batsmen , Sachin , Viv , ABdV , Kohli , Dhoni and Lara ( Ponting, Bevan , Abbas and Jones completes top 10 )

 

[_00_deathscar]

I am currently entertaining the idea that there is a correlation between decline and greatness. You had to be pretty ducking good to sustain a decline at the end without being dumped. The longer your decline indicates how good you were.
Obviously can't include minnows like current Australia or we might be calling s marsh great.

There are definitely other factors, like India/subcontinent teams definitely tend to let their legends carry on or announce their own departure rather than force them out, whereas Australia etc tend to be a bit more ruthless.

However, yes - usually the greater you are, the more the team will persist with you even through a two year slump. In some cases, even shifting the whole team/team balance around to try to find a spot for you.

I mean if you don't have a huge body of work behind you, it's unlikely you will persist with someone like KL Rahul after multiple failures, and why would you?