Sarfraz Ahmed Racist Comments Discussion

[Burgey]

I mean, I might make an awfully condescending comment to you (out of character I know) but it doesn’t mean I have to be consciously thinking you’re a monstrous intellectual lightweight at the monent I say it to you.

Doesn’t make the comment any less condescending though.

 

[Prince EWS]

To expand on this, I really just think that the term "racist comment" should be reserved for genuinely "racist" views and statements. ie. something about races being inferior/superior, judging people based on race, denying opportunities based on race etc.

equating some dumb **** using a word he doesn't understand with that is just dumb IMO

look up "racist" in the dictionary

Technically what he made was a racially insensitive comment rather than a racist one, but I don't think this hair-splitting really advances the conversation at all.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Coming from SA this is one of the worst arguments you ever have.... unconscious racism is a dire problem in the country, because while people might not truly 'hate' another race, they tar them with a brush built on what the society ingrains into them. It makes it far worse because people don't see how by thinking and behaving (even unconsciously) in a certain manner affects other people. You effectively degrade that person and make them 'less' because in your eyes society has made that acceptable. You don't have to think in extremes to realise when something is racist, racism is not just about being a part of the KKK. And the worst racism is the society ingrained unconscious social racism which people think is 'ok' because intent was not truly malicious and thus excusable. It is never excusable.

This has nothing to do with anything I said. No form of racism is acceptable, regardless of how mainstream or how accepted it can be in certain populations. But equating that with a bloke using a word in a 2nd or 3rd language that he clearly doesn't understand the full meaning of is absurd.

Omg this is horrendous. You don’t need to have a consciously racist thought in your head for a comment to be racist

Disagree

Technically what he made was a racially insensitive comment rather than a racist one, but I don't think this hair-splitting really advances the conversation at all.

It can be an issue. Labelling with terms like "racist" can be extremely counter productive, even predatory. The media is especially bad at this.

Celebrated scientists have received death threats for publishing studies that demonstrate physiological differences between people of different ancestry.

 

[Daemon]

Is that you toolman?

 

[MrPrez]

Coming from SA this is one of the worst arguments you ever have.... unconscious racism is a dire problem in the country, because while people might not truly 'hate' another race, they tar them with a brush built on what the society ingrains into them. It makes it far worse because people don't see how by thinking and behaving (even unconsciously) in a certain manner affects other people. You effectively degrade that person and make them 'less' because in your eyes society has made that acceptable. You don't have to think in extremes to realise when something is racist, racism is not just about being a part of the KKK. And the worst racism is the society ingrained unconscious social racism which people think is 'ok' because intent was not truly malicious and thus excusable. It is never excusable.

Not that anything you've said is incorrect, and while I generally disagree with TJB on this matter, what you're referring to is the complete opposite situation of what TJB is saying.

You're referring to something subliminal yet based upon an actual racial bias; TJB is referring to something direct, but not necessarily based upon a negative bias.

 

[harsh.ag]

If we're getting into minutiae of it, then let's talk about the context of dark skin in different cultures. In the west, the context of dark skin is tied to the people of African origin. In the subcontinent, it is not. The same race, same community, and same family even will have wildly differing colour tones. And dark skin is still looked down upon and words like "kaale" are used in a derogatory fashion for all the people from your own community. So, is that still racist or racially insensitive or is it a whole different beast altogether?

 

[TheJediBrah]

I think the key takeaway is to not go overboard with it. Which is a pretty big ask these days whenever the media gets its hands on something that can revolve around a buzzword like "racism".

Sarfraz needs to be made to understand, if he doesn't already, that it was not cool and not to do it again. If this involves a bit of a punishment, even a small fine, that's ok. But the suggestion that he should be banned, or anything more serious than a small fine as a punishment is wrong. Any excessive/unnecessary demonisation of the player is wrong.

If he does it again and with malice, then sure, lynch mob away. I don't really care.

 

[Burgey]

Tbh, the pre-emptive outrage strike from the crew who are always defending the offenders is very often as great or greater than what’s pointed out as having transgressed

 

[Stefan9]

Ignorance is no defence. And as an international captain he should be well aware of cultural sensitivities. He should get with a long ban. No Racism allowed.

 

[smash84]

If we're getting into minutiae of it, then let's talk about the context of dark skin in different cultures. In the west, the context of dark skin is tied to the people of African origin. In the subcontinent, it is not. The same race, same community, and same family even will have wildly differing colour tones. And dark skin is still looked down upon and words like "kaale" are used in a derogatory fashion for all the people from your own community. So, is that still racist or racially insensitive or is it a whole different beast altogether?

Exactly, I have seen brothers using the 'kaala' term for the other because one was darker than the other. How the heck do you classify that?

While we're on the subject of racism, can anybody provide a good definition? Seems like a term where a lot of people have a fairly different interpretation of what it means.

 

[Senile Sentry]

Burgey mate you got to control your cyber anger. Try vipassana.

 

[Marius]

Coming from SA this is one of the worst arguments you ever have.... unconscious racism is a dire problem in the country, because while people might not truly 'hate' another race, they tar them with a brush built on what the society ingrains into them. It makes it far worse because people don't see how by thinking and behaving (even unconsciously) in a certain manner affects other people. You effectively degrade that person and make them 'less' because in your eyes society has made that acceptable. You don't have to think in extremes to realise when something is racist, racism is not just about being a part of the KKK. And the worst racism is the society ingrained unconscious social racism which people think is 'ok' because intent was not truly malicious and thus excusable. It is never excusable.

I don't know, this is a bit too much like 'thought crime' for me.

Sure, people can be insensitive, but intent is also important.

 

[StephenZA]

I don't know, this is a bit too much like 'thought crime' for me.

Sure, people can be insensitive, but intent is also important.

I never said intent was not important... but it is more than thought, it is behavioural. There is to much negative vernacular in society that is degrading to other people based on race (and other things). And people don't even realise they are doing it, and if pointed out, too often used excuse is 'well I didn't mean it that way' and it is brushed under the proverbial rug. Context matters, so does intent, but the behaviour and language used matters just as much and quickly it becomes an accepted societal norm.

 

[Stefan9]

Intent only lessens the punishment it does not excuse the crime.

 

[Migara]

Tbh my biggest peeve with this is the labelling of an ignorant comment as "racist". With your Tim Paine analogy, if he genuinely had no idea that P*ki is an inappropriate term to use, then I absolutely don't think it's a "racist comment". You need racist intent behind it.

Now, in a white country calling a Pakistani a "P@ki" is regarded racist / derogatory by Pakistanis as for my knowledge, if it comes from a white man. If it comes from a Sri Lankan, then the Pakistani would not give a flying ****, and even may identify himself as a "P@ki" because most of them know that it coming from a Sri Lankan has absolutely no racist intents, and usually used to identify pakistani friens as "my p@ki friend" etc.

 

[sledger]

Excellent. This thread has descended into the awfulness I had in mind when I started it. No surprises that the usual candidates are responsible for the awfulness. Good stuff from Burge though.

 

[weldone]

Excellent. This thread has descended into the awfulness I had in mind when I started it. No surprises that the usual candidates are responsible for the awfulness. Good stuff from Burge though.

Why don't you participate with your ocean-like wisdom to make this thread better rather than cribbing like the uncool Pakistani captain?

What punishment do you propose for Sarfraz? You've mentioned that you want him banned but for how long? Do you want him banned for life?

 

[sledger]

Why don't you participate?

Have you seen the state of some of the other people participating? No ****ing thanks.

I don't want to be associated with posters like smali, TJB and Migara lol.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Cant be bothered going through every post here and responding but the idea that intent is completely irrelevant is horseshit. No one's saying lack of intent makes it ok, which is the strawman everyone seems to be going for.

 

[weldone]

Have you seen the state of some of the other people participating? No ****ing thanks.

Do you want to answer my other question? (quoted below)

What punishment do you propose for Sarfraz? You've mentioned that you want him banned but for how long? Do you want him banned for life?