*Official* India Tour of Australia 2018/19

[Starfighter]

I generally tend to give a large weightage to overall averages. Ashwin averages 25 and Lyon 32. Ashwin is well ahead in that aspect, but then we will have a large hue and cry about him being a home track bully.

Said hue and cry is a factually correct one though.

Comparing in and out of Asia is hardly micro-obsessing. It's not like the huge difference of conditions between the two is a secret.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Idk why we're so micro-obsessed with bowling stats anyway. I'm still of the opinion that they aren't especially meaningful.

I find it interesting personally, especially Jimmy 34.55 Anderson

 

[Spark]

Said hue and cry is a factually correct one though.

Comparing in and out of Asia is hardly micro-obsessing. It's not like the huge difference of conditions between the two is a secret.

My point is that bowling statistics are often not especially reflective of how well someone bowls (especially if the overall attack is strong, as it is in both cases), unlike batting statistics which are much more robust IMO.

 

[h_hurricane]

Lyon SENA bowling: 33.28 (210 wickets best 7/152, 5x5 1x10)

Ashwin SENA bowling: 43.37 (48 wickets best 4/62, 0x5 0x10)

Sri Lanka is overseas pretty much in name only for an Indian spin bowler.

Not sure if is a fair analogy. You are taking away Ashwin's home record but not Lyon's ( He is born and bred on those tracks even though not spin friendly, hence in a better position to bowl well there).

Also taking away SL stats is also kind of unfair. If Lyon had performed as well as Ashwin there, Aus would not have been blanked 3-0 last year. Or do these failures not matter at all ?

Lyon is clearly the better bowler in SENA. But this is not the only thing that matters. If you take away all of Ashwin's good performances, it will look bad And he has hardly bowled much in SENA.

PS: I am aware of Lyon's good performances in SL in 2011, all the more reason to include them.

 

[OverratedSanity]

My point is that bowling statistics are often not especially reflective of how well someone bowls (especially if the overall attack is strong, as it is in both cases), unlike batting statistics which are much more robust IMO.

Eh batting averages mislead a lot too. I could reel off a list of batsmen who have good looking averages in certain conditions despite not actually contributing innings of real substance.

 

[cnerd123]

Said hue and cry is a factually correct one though.

Comparing in and out of Asia is hardly micro-obsessing. It's not like the huge difference of conditions between the two is a secret.

If you genuinely want to compare bowler performances across different conditions, you should go deeper than putting all of Asia in one category. Sri Lanka produces several seamer-friendly tracks, UAE's pitches are flat and slow, Bangladesh's pitches all assist spin but vary in pace and how batter friendly they are, and the same can be said for India.

Even the 'assisting spin' part - sure there is sideways movement, but uneven bounce aids spinners too, provided they know how to use it. Australia and SA both have provided pitches that have actually been pretty good for spin, jut doesn't get labelled that way. England has provided plenty of pitches that are actually pretty good for spin and have been acknowledged as such, while West Indies recently was a seam and swing bowlers paradise.

And to repeat what OS said - sometimes it's not the pitches that bowlers have to adapt to, it's also the ball that's used. I think we also should consider the outfields and size of grounds - very different strategy when bowling in small NZ grounds vs bigger Aus grounds, even if the pitches were identical.

Just dividing it into Asia and The Rest isn't really of much use IMO. Sure it tells you something, but not enough.

 

[h_hurricane]

Said hue and cry is a factually correct one though.

Comparing in and out of Asia is hardly micro-obsessing. It's not like the huge difference of conditions between the two is a secret.

Sydney is a more spin friendly pitch than Dharamsala or Bangalore. It is not like Ashwin gets spin friendly pitches all the time in Asia and Lyon never gets in SENA.

 

[Spark]

Eh batting averages mislead a lot too. I could reel off a list of batsmen who have good looking averages in certain conditions despite not actually contributing innings of real substance.

You aren't actually contradicting my post tbf

Sydney is a more spin friendly pitch than Dharamsala or Bangalore. It is not like Ashwin gets spin friendly pitches all the time in Asia and Lyon never gets in SENA.

Have you not watched a Sydney test match since, like... 2000?

 

[Starfighter]

Not sure if is a fair analogy. You are taking away Ashwin's home record but not Lyon's ( He is born and bred on those tracks even though not spin friendly, hence in a better position to bowl well there).

So? If I was comparing Ashwin to another bowler in Asia I wouldn't remove his home record either. Lyon's average in Australia is 33.31, if I remove that and stick to SEN it goes down to 33.23 (68, 1x5)

Also taking away SL stats is also kind of unfair. If Lyon had performed as well as Ashwin there, Aus would not have been blanked 3-0 last year. Or do these failures not matter at all ?

I don't even quite get the context to this comment, but last time I checked SL was in Asia. The contrast between SL and SENA is much bigger than between India and SL.

Lyon is clearly the better bowler in SENA. But this is not the only thing that matters. If you take away all of Ashwin's good performances, it will look bad

If I take away all of Lyon's good performances it will look bad too

And he has hardly bowled much in SENA.

Not my fault India dropped a test against SA this year in order to play another home series against a hopeless WI side, or that he got dropped in SA in 13/14 (was that series also shortened?) because he wasn't considered good enough, or Karn Sharma was picked ahead of him and so on.

PS: I am aware of Lyon's good performances in SL in 2011, all the more reason to include them.

Kinda contradicts your earlier point.

 

[Shri]

Shut up ****s.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cric...ay-to-shine/story-14L8xjrLwDIXW5zN3vBmgM.html

Shaw's out of the Perth test.

 

[Starfighter]

That helps us a little bit.

 

[aussie tragic]

Here's a thought, create an Aswin v Lyon thread and save us reading another 10 pages of crap in this thread

 

[h_hurricane]

You aren't actually contradicting my post tbf



Have you not watched a Sydney test match since, like... 2000?

Have seen some of them. In 2008, Michael Clarke got our tail enders in no time. In 2004, Anil Kumble got 12 wickets or something like that. SOK and Lyon took a lot of wickets against WI in 2016 before rain saved the tourists. The nature of the pitch may have changed over the years, but essentially it is a spin friendly track.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

On Shaw, can't really say I'm too surprised he won't be fit for Perth. He certainly didn't look to be walking very freely in the times I saw him around in the Adelaide test

 

[Spark]

Have seen some of them. In 2008, Michael Clarke got our tail enders in no time. In 2004, Anil Kumble got 12 wickets or something like that. SOK and Lyon took a lot of wickets against WI in 2016 before rain saved the tourists. The nature of the pitch may have changed over the years, but essentially it is a spin friendly track.

It really isn't. There have been more greentops in the last decade than actual spin-friendly pitches, and it is really stretching it to call 2008 a spin-friendly track, meme over aside.

Mostly it's just a standard boring Australian pitch which is marginally slower and drier than average. And it's a totally unjustifiable stretch to say it's more spin-friendly than Bangalore. The spin-friendly Sydney pitch is even more of a myth than the fire-breathing WACA. It's genuinely one of the most boring Test pitches in the world these days, except next to maybe Melbourne. It used to be genuinely spin-friendly, but not any more. Not since about 2005.

 

[Starfighter]

Have seen some of them. In 2008, Michael Clarke got our tail enders in no time. In 2004, Anil Kumble got 12 wickets or something like that. SOK and Lyon took a lot of wickets against WI in 2016 before rain saved the tourists. The nature of the pitch may have changed over the years, but essentially it is a spin friendly track.

Spin bowlers average 42.76 at Sydney in this century compared to 36.98 for pacers. At Bangalore it's 33.99 vs 34.11.

So, put simply, no.

If we go 2010s, a very small sample, it's Sydney 51.63 vs 33.18 compared to Bangalore 25.28 vs 35.88 (spin vs pace).

 

[Spark]

Spin bowlers average 42.76 at Sydney in this century compared to 36.98 for pacers. At Bangalore it's 33.99 vs 34.11.

So, put simply, no.

It's mostly just a road, tbh, with the occasional greentop when it rains a lot.

 

[h_hurricane]

So? If I was comparing Ashwin to another bowler in Asia I wouldn't remove his home record either. Lyon's average in Australia is 33.31, if I remove that and stick to SEN it goes down to 33.23 (68, 1x5)

I don't even quite get the context to this comment, but last time I checked SL was in Asia. The contrast between SL and SENA is much bigger than between India and SL.

If I take away all of Lyon's good performances it will look bad too


Not my fault India dropped a test against SA this year in order to play another home series against a hopeless WI side, or that he got dropped in SA in 13/14 (was that series also shortened?) because he wasn't considered good enough, or Karn Sharma was picked ahead of him and so on.


Kinda contradicts your earlier point.

I did not contest that Lyon is a better bowler than Ashwin in SENA, all I am saying is matches in SL should not be excluded while comparing them. Why they should be excluded just because they are Asian pitches. Learning to do well in friendly conditions is an important part of the trade. Ashwin is better than Lyon in that aspect (although Lyon is better in alien conditions).

Lyon's average of 32 is exactly the reason why he is a good bowler. Good everywhere without being exceptional.

Ashwin is an absolute beast when the pitch helps him. That matters a lot, at least to me. He has been dropped in the past and will get dropped in the future also abroad. That is one hole in his resume.

 

[Starfighter]

Why should matches in SL be included when they're not relevant to the comparison?

 

[h_hurricane]

Spin bowlers average 42.76 at Sydney in this century compared to 36.98 for pacers. At Bangalore it's 33.99 vs 34.11.

So, put simply, no.

If we go 2010s, a very small sample, it's Sydney 51.63 vs 33.18 compared to Bangalore 25.28 vs 35.88 (spin vs pace).

Yeah. I stand corrected here.