South Africa team selection

[Bolo]

South Africa has had a depth problem for years. In recent history it's always been a feast or famine top heavy lineup. It's simply been covered by the fact the top 4 were arguably the most destructive top 4 in the game. But with AB slowly losing his skills(and he has been), QDK not being anywhere close to the player he used to be, and the others getting even older, the problem is simply coming to a huge head now. Within 5 years or so, South African cricket as an ODI power is going to be over.

We've had something of a depth problem for years. It's gotten a lot worse recently. We had Duminy's very capable part-timers and berhardiens very mediocre part-timers to call on. We had Morris who showed a lot more promise as a genuine allrounder when he came in than he has lived up to. And we were playing more bowlers who could bat a little, like Philander. The bowlers we have been blooding recently (with the exception of Andile) have dross with the bat.

Finished as an ODI power is a big statement. We had the worst series I can remember, but it was only one injury laden series and we had a great run before that (against some admittedly weak opposition). This series notwithstanding, we have a great top 4 who should hang around until the world cup or beyond. Form has been a bit of a concern, but none of the players are old enough to say they are past their best yet (they could be, but it remains to be seen). Miller has got consistently better over his career. And we still have some solid bowlers.

Post 2019 we probably lose about 5 mainstays of the team. We are going to have real issues then, but team strength is always cyclical. 5 years from now, who knows. There will be players we have never heard of. Our domestic structure doesn't exactly inspire confidence, but it only takes a few great players to come through to build a team around.

 

[robbypark]

We've had something of a depth problem for years. It's gotten a lot worse recently. We had Duminy's very capable part-timers and berhardiens very mediocre part-timers to call on. We had Morris who showed a lot more promise as a genuine allrounder when he came in than he has lived up to. And we were playing more bowlers who could bat a little, like Philander. The bowlers we have been blooding recently (with the exception of Andile) have dross with the bat.

Finished as an ODI power is a big statement. We had the worst series I can remember, but it was only one injury laden series and we had a great run before that (against some admittedly weak opposition). This series notwithstanding, we have a great top 4 who should hang around until the world cup or beyond. Form has been a bit of a concern, but none of the players are old enough to say they are past their best yet (they could be, but it remains to be seen). Miller has got consistently better over his career. And we still have some solid bowlers.

Post 2019 we probably lose about 5 mainstays of the team. We are going to have real issues then, but team strength is always cyclical. 5 years from now, who knows. There will be players we have never heard of. Our domestic structure doesn't exactly inspire confidence, but it only takes a few great players to come through to build a team around.

You can't call the top 4 great anymore. De Kock has degenerated into a below average international player. I Don't know if its a mental thing or something but the guy has looked completely uncomfortable swinging the bat and is too scared to go for shots any longer. Amla is almost 35 and is clearly not the destructive batsman he once was in this format. His strike rate has dropped dramatically in recent times. ABD is still a great batsman at times but too often he's having terrible games where he gets wicketed by the simplest of deliveries.

I think they can remain a very good ODI team until the World Cup. Hell, if they are healthy I give them a shot to win the whole thing. But after that, the future looks very gloomy - there are no top youngsters that you look at currently and think they can take the place of the SA superstars.

 

[SeamUp]

South Africa has had a depth problem for years. In recent history it's always been a feast or famine top heavy lineup. It's simply been covered by the fact the top 4 were arguably the most destructive top 4 in the game. But with AB slowly losing his skills(and he has been), QDK not being anywhere close to the player he used to be, and the others getting even older, the problem is simply coming to a huge head now. Within 5 years or so, South African cricket as an ODI power is going to be over.

I think all things considered when you lose your next layer of talent like van Zyl, Rossouw, Ackermann, Levi, Ingram, Vilas, Harmer, Wiese, Abbott, Viljoen, de Lange we have actually done very well considering we've had a period where a lot of our key players have been injured.

I wouldn't say I'm a massive fan of all the above but I also understand that outside influences have probably taken out the part of needing high excellence to stay in a team particularly at our franchise level which is unfortunate. When you have ability and knowing you need to perform to stay in a team and to achieve higher honours it pushes you and your team mates to new levels.

No doubt it is time for JP and Miller to start stepping up consistently now. Article on the situation : https://www.iol.co.za/sport/cricket/proteas/can-jp-and-miller-learn-from-youngsters-13380815

 

[SeamUp]

You can't call the top 4 great anymore. De Kock has degenerated into a below average international player. I Don't know if its a mental thing or something but the guy has looked completely uncomfortable swinging the bat and is too scared to go for shots any longer. Amla is almost 35 and is clearly not the destructive batsman he once was in this format. His strike rate has dropped dramatically in recent times. ABD is still a great batsman at times but too often he's having terrible games where he gets wicketed by the simplest of deliveries.

I think they can remain a very good ODI team until the World Cup. Hell, if they are healthy I give them a shot to win the whole thing. But after that, the future looks very gloomy - there are no top youngsters that you look at currently and think they can take the place of the SA superstars.

To soon to make a sweeping statement like that after 6-8 months of playing a hand-full of tests and a batch of ODI's. Not so long ago he was our only batsman capable of scoring runs at Lord's and the push to put him up the order. He had an amazing last summer in both formats.

Definitely giving him some space.

Taking into account he wasn't scoring runs for the Titans in T20 that to me is a mental block of sorts. Maybe getting married and resting on his laurels a bit. What pushed him on was knowing he had to make a cricketer career for himself otherwise other things were bleak. Maybe he needs a reminder of that.

 

[StephenZA]

You can't call the top 4 great anymore. De Kock has degenerated into a below average international player. I Don't know if its a mental thing or something but the guy has looked completely uncomfortable swinging the bat and is too scared to go for shots any longer. Amla is almost 35 and is clearly not the destructive batsman he once was in this format. His strike rate has dropped dramatically in recent times. ABD is still a great batsman at times but too often he's having terrible games where he gets wicketed by the simplest of deliveries.

I think they can remain a very good ODI team until the World Cup. Hell, if they are healthy I give them a shot to win the whole thing. But after that, the future looks very gloomy - there are no top youngsters that you look at currently and think they can take the place of the SA superstars.

Not true....

And turning QDK into a terrible player because he has been out of form...... bit harsh for someone who has already proven so much!

 

[StephenZA]

Sweeping generic statements, because a SA LO's B team lost to India.....?

 

[Bolo]

I think all things considered when you lose your next layer of talent like van Zyl, Rossouw, Ackermann, Levi, Ingram, Vilas, Harmer, Wiese, Abbott, Viljoen, de Lange we have actually done very well considering we've had a period where a lot of our key players have been injured.

I wouldn't say I'm a massive fan of all the above but I also understand that outside influences have probably taken out the part of needing high excellence to stay in a team particularly at our franchise level which is unfortunate. When you have ability and knowing you need to perform to stay in a team and to achieve higher honours it pushes you and your team mates to new levels.

No doubt it is time for JP and Miller to start stepping up consistently now. Article on the situation : https://www.iol.co.za/sport/cricket/proteas/can-jp-and-miller-learn-from-youngsters-13380815

How many of these were a loss to the national side? Most of them seem to have gone because they couldn't quite crack it at national level.

The one that really sticks out to me for ODIs is Rossouw.i had a lot of faith in him. Abbott seemed like a big loss at the time, but in retrospect I'm not too sure.

 

[StephenZA]

I think all things considered when you lose your next layer of talent like van Zyl, Rossouw, Ackermann, Levi, Ingram, Vilas, Harmer, Wiese, Abbott, Viljoen, de Lange we have actually done very well considering we've had a period where a lot of our key players have been injured.

I wouldn't say I'm a massive fan of all the above but I also understand that outside influences have probably taken out the part of needing high excellence to stay in a team particularly at our franchise level which is unfortunate. When you have ability and knowing you need to perform to stay in a team and to achieve higher honours it pushes you and your team mates to new levels.

No doubt it is time for JP and Miller to start stepping up consistently now. Article on the situation : https://www.iol.co.za/sport/cricket/proteas/can-jp-and-miller-learn-from-youngsters-13380815

I think that hurt the FC teams more than the international side.... but some of them are still playing franchise cricket. Rossouw was the single biggest loss.... I'm sure that de Bruyn is happy about it though!

How many of these were a loss to the national side? Most of them seem to have gone because they couldn't quite crack it at national level.

The one that really sticks out to me for ODIs is Rossouw.i had a lot of faith in him. Abbott seemed like a big loss at the time, but in retrospect I'm not too sure.

Abbott was a big loss at the time.... we were just very, very lucky to get Rabada when we did to take up slack. Rabada's work rate has been silly. Would have been interesting to potentially have to choice between Abbott and Morkel for the LO games! Good to have Ngidi doing well, and also know du Pavillon and Olivier are more than capable.

 

[Dendarii]

Abbott seemed like a big loss at the time, but in retrospect I'm not too sure.

I think Abbott's loss was felt for a while due to injuries to Steyn, Morkel, and Philander as it's probably fair to say that he's a cut above those who were called up as injury replacements. But now it's just Steyn who's out, the emergence of Ngidi has effectively filled the hole left by Abbott, and there's no reason to expect the production line of fast bowlers to stop any time soon. Admittedly, we haven't been great with the ball in the shorter formats against India, and Abbott would have made a difference there, but the batting is a bit more of a concern at the moment.

 

[Bolo]

I think that hurt the FC teams more than the international side.... but some of them are still playing franchise cricket. Rossouw was the single biggest loss.... I'm sure that de Bruyn is happy about it though!

Abbott was a big loss at the time.... we were just very, very lucky to get Rabada when we did to take up slack. Rabada's work rate has been silly. Would have been interesting to potentially have to choice between Abbott and Morkel for the LO games! Good to have Ngidi doing well, and also know du Pavillon and Olivier are more than capable.

A few of them are involved domestically still, so arguably not that big a loss. Still, it feels like the talent pool in domestic is so limited that any loss is a big one, and at some point there has to be a ripple effect up to the national side from not having sufficient exposure to top level players.

Abbott would probably be a straight shootout with Morkel in ODIs, considering lack of batting depth and quotas. I've always been a massive fan of Morkel's in ODIs, moreso than anyone since Pollock, but he seems to be slowly sliding. I have a theory on this- that the fact that he has finally learned to pitch it up in tests has led to him overpitching in ODIs. I haven't been watching enough ODIs to know if this is actually true though- it's just about a straight up guess. Any thoughts on this?

 

[StephenZA]

A few of them are involved domestically still, so arguably not that big a loss. Still, it feels like the talent pool in domestic is so limited that any loss is a big one, and at some point there has to be a ripple effect up to the national side from not having sufficient exposure to top level players.

Abbott would probably be a straight shootout with Morkel in ODIs, considering lack of batting depth and quotas. I've always been a massive fan of Morkel's in ODIs, moreso than anyone since Pollock, but he seems to be slowly sliding. I have a theory on this- that the fact that he has finally learned to pitch it up in tests has led to him overpitching in ODIs. I haven't been watching enough ODIs to know if this is actually true though- it's just about a straight up guess. Any thoughts on this?

I think this is more about consistent length.... all our bowlers are not practising (or executing!!) the variations often enough. A few years back Morkel played fantastic in the IPL (when he turned his LO career around) and one of his best balls was the block-hole yorker. Hardly ever see him do that anymore. Similar to the rest of our bowlers really, Rabada is probably the best at variation and is by far our best LO bowler. So pitching up is fine, but including a short ball, slower ball etc is what gets you wickets in LO cricket.

 

[Bolo]

I think this is more about consistent length.... all our bowlers are not practising (or executing!!) the variations often enough. A few years back Morkel played fantastic in the IPL (when he turned his LO career around) and one of his best balls was the block-hole yorker. Hardly ever see him do that anymore. Similar to the rest of our bowlers really, Rabada is probably the best at variation and is by far our best LO bowler. So pitching up is fine, but including a short ball, slower ball etc is what gets you wickets in LO cricket.

We've hardly ever had bowlers who could produce any variation. Rabada is a complete standout.

All our other best bowlers were predominantly back of a length pacers who got substantial lift and pushed the ball at the body a fair bit to cramp right handers. Morkel and ntini particularly, Donald and early career Pollock with slightly less focus on cramping the batsmen as they were moving it both ways and forcing wickets rather than having them be created by runrate pressure.

Agreed that you should be able to bowl more than just a stock ball, but Morkel's previous test stock ball seems like a pretty good way to go in ODIs.

Everyone should be working on Yorkers IMO. They aren't the auto zero run producers that they were in the 90s because batsmen have learned to play them better, but even an unsuccessful yorker probably goes for less runs than a length ball on average at the end of an innings.

 

[StephenZA]

We've hardly ever had bowlers who could produce any variation. Rabada is a complete standout.

All our other best bowlers were predominantly back of a length pacers who got substantial lift and pushed the ball at the body a fair bit to cramp right handers. Morkel and ntini particularly, Donald and early career Pollock with slightly less focus on cramping the batsmen as they were moving it both ways and forcing wickets rather than having them be created by runrate pressure.

Agreed that you should be able to bowl more than just a stock ball, but Morkel's previous test stock ball seems like a pretty good way to go in ODIs.

Everyone should be working on Yorkers IMO. They aren't the auto zero run producers that they were in the 90s because batsmen have learned to play them better, but even an unsuccessful yorker probably goes for less runs than a length ball on average at the end of an innings.

I think many of our past best LO bowlers had variation. You mentioned Pollock earlier, produced cutters and helped developed the slower ball bouncer. Klusener used to do all sorts of variations, cutters, slower balls etc. All our current bowlers are bowling short, back of the length hardly any variation.... it is an art that seems to have been lost with the younger bowlers. Frylinck who has been very successful domestically is just a one man variation show, with the way he bowls.

 

[Bolo]

I think many of our past best LO bowlers had variation. You mentioned Pollock earlier, produced cutters and helped developed the slower ball bouncer. Klusener used to do all sorts of variations, cutters, slower balls etc. All our current bowlers are bowling short, back of the length hardly any variation.... it is an art that seems to have been lost with the younger bowlers. Frylinck who has been very successful domestically is just a one man variation show, with the way he bowls.

Other than ntini, they all had more variation than Morkel, but the ones I mentioned were all pretty low on variation. I don't remember Pollock bowling cutters when he had some gas, but I may be wrong. The slower ball bouncer he only tried out in one of his last matches.

I don't think klusener belongs in the same category as the rest of these guys, but IIRC, he was basically 2 different bowlers pre and post injury. First he was basically an ntini style length/ back of a length cramping bowler and after the injury he was an insane mixup of variations.

One guy I thought was severely underrated, especially as a death bowler was Hall. We've needed someone like him ever since he left.

Back of a length is still good in my book, but it does come with some caveats.
1. We shouldn't have so much back of a length in a team (Morkel, ngidi and rabada to an extent)
2. They should be using the bounce and either angle or movement to cramp the batsmen a bit better
3. There should be some additional variation

None of these are that easy to achieve though. It took Morkel 10 years to adjust his stock ball in tests a bit fuller, and even this he's never got completely right.

Maybe rabada will have some knock on effect on new bowlers coming in. As good a run of bowlers as we've had (in tests and ODIs), the top bowlers have all had a fairly limited skillset. Ngidi is still young though, and variation usually only comes with age.

 

[Dendarii]

So how much of a reprieve has Duminy earned after last night's match?

 

[StephenZA]

So how much of a reprieve has Duminy earned after last night's match?

He also scored a 50 in the ODI series and took a few wickets... but dammitt all! Has Duminy ever won a man of series in the years his played, dominated at all with the bat? Can't remember, anything.....Duminy would have been a perfect #7 if his spin was half decent ...

I don;t think he will get dropped from the LO's stuff anytime soon.

 

[StephenZA]

Looking at Klaasens performance yesterday, definitely needs to be part of the SA setup at the moment if for no other reason than his form, should replace either one of Duminy or Miller in main team.

If I had a first choice ODI XI right now would probably go with

Amla
QDK
Markram
ABdV
Faf
Klaasens
Phehlukwayo
Morris
Morkel
Rabada
Tahir

Duminy, Miller, Ngidi, Shamsi, Mulder would make my 15. And I would play with a flexible batting line-up based on the situation of the game.

 

[SeamUp]

Other than ntini, they all had more variation than Morkel, but the ones I mentioned were all pretty low on variation. I don't remember Pollock bowling cutters when he had some gas, but I may be wrong. The slower ball bouncer he only tried out in one of his last matches.

I don't think klusener belongs in the same category as the rest of these guys, but IIRC, he was basically 2 different bowlers pre and post injury. First he was basically an ntini style length/ back of a length cramping bowler and after the injury he was an insane mixup of variations.

One guy I thought was severely underrated, especially as a death bowler was Hall. We've needed someone like him ever since he left.

Back of a length is still good in my book, but it does come with some caveats.
1. We shouldn't have so much back of a length in a team (Morkel, ngidi and rabada to an extent)
2. They should be using the bounce and either angle or movement to cramp the batsmen a bit better
3. There should be some additional variation

None of these are that easy to achieve though. It took Morkel 10 years to adjust his stock ball in tests a bit fuller, and even this he's never got completely right.

Maybe rabada will have some knock on effect on new bowlers coming in. As good a run of bowlers as we've had (in tests and ODIs), the top bowlers have all had a fairly limited skillset. Ngidi is still young though, and variation usually only comes with age.

Shaun Pollock was a thinking man's bowler. He had the skill-set and was adaptable with the ball for whatever was required. He loved to roll his fingers across with pace or lack of it. If memory serves me correct he was the first to bowl the slower ball bouncer.

Same with Klusener. Adaptable between cutters and seam , could bowl wicket to wicket and bowled a good bumper. Hence 6 5-wicket hauls in the format.

 

[SeamUp]

So how much of a reprieve has Duminy earned after last night's match?

He also scored a 50 in the ODI series and took a few wickets... but dammitt all! Has Duminy ever won a man of series in the years his played, dominated at all with the bat? Can't remember, anything.....Duminy would have been a perfect #7 if his spin was half decent ...

I don;t think he will get dropped from the LO's stuff anytime soon.

Tough thing about Duminy is in his little run in the test team at 3 he was an all or nothing player. Once the all dried up it was a scary positionwe were in, in that format.

 

[StephenZA]

I think the big thing about Duminy is he has obvious glaring weaknesses in his game that the rest of the world knows about, and he has never really improved or corrected them. So in the right conditions and or against an inexperienced bowler he looks fantastic but against a quality attack that knows how to bowl to him, he falls apart quickly.... hence his ability to score big runs domestically and hardly score at international level.