South Africa team selection

[StephenZA]

Now AB is out injured, surely they will give Markram another go

Conveniently! Don't count Zonda out.... as Behardien score another 50 to keep Titans going.

 

[GRAB]

In terms of up and coming L/O batters, Moonsamy has had a promising start, but don't think he'll be ready for the Proteas by 2019. Definitely a possibility in the future at 5/6 (though batting higher at the moment for Titans)...

 

[GRAB]

Pity the scheduling wasn't such that the Proteas L/O players could've played in the Momentum Cup semi-final and then gone on to start the ODI series. Would've added interest for that series as well... As it is, with 7 (8 with AB) Titans out of 14/15 they suffered the most. Dolphins are second with 3. Warriors have 0 players in that squad... In fact, only Jonjon is the only international in our squad except Kolpak Harmer (and Ingram if he were available)... This is by no means a new problem, be grappling with it ever since readmission, and it feels like our domestic competitions are steadily neglected an audience...

 

[Rasimione]

Yeah I don't think it's a major concern we will find a couple more. We just need at least 4 to cover injury and work-load.

Whether it's Dupavillon/Williams as skiddy bowlers, Cohen/Burger as left-arm options or Olivier, Nortje, Coetzee I am sure someone from that lot will step up at the times needd.

The key will be Wiaan Mulder for work-load like you say. A true all-arounder needs to be able to score test match hundreds and he will be well capable of that as well getting key break-throughs.

Thing is with Morris and Phehlujwayo - are they capable if doing what Klusener and S.Pollock were capable of doing in scoring test match hundreds ? The answer at this moment is no so they have to be getting in as bowlers mainly.

Phehlukwayo should not be anywhere near the test team. At best he's a bits and pieces player that doesn't add up anything of significance to the team. I can stomach his selection for the ODI Squad but not test cricket. Mulder has talent but he needs to bat higher in the order.

 

[StephenZA]

Thinking of the ODI team, I am wondering if QDK should be playing at 5/6? I know people keep saying don't swap him around and I understand that, and he has had an exceptionally successful opening partnership with Amla; but we need a decent 5/6 and with Markram now making the squad consistently why not drop QDK to 5/6 he can rotate strike and we know he is a clen hitter when need, naturally aggressive etc. Then we can have an Amla, Markram, Faf, ABdV, QDK... batting lineup. Or do you think that Markram could do the #5 position? Or are we gonna stick with Duminy/Miller 5/6?

 

[SeamUp]

At this stage I wouldn't want to take QdKs potential match-winning ability away from opening. He needs to find his mojo again.

 

[Bahseph]

This India series shows how spoilt we have been with our top 4. QDK, Amla, Faf and AB have been so good for so long that we didn't really have to look at other players.

I think a few tough decisions have to be made. Especially with JP and Miller.

 

[Tom Flint]

What has markram done to warrant a place in the odi team? Can't remember too much myslef.
Maybe wrong though

 

[Stefan9]

What has markram done to warrant a place in the odi team? Can't remember too much myslef.
Maybe wrong though

2 scores of 150 + in last year's momentum cup including a record breaking highest in domestic list A that came in the final.

 

[Bahseph]

As I mentioned in the Tour thread I'm going to reserve my criticism of the newer players for just a little while longer. Klaasen, Zondo and Markram will undoubtedly be better players after this experience. Theoretically that is.

Just a quick thought, why has de Bruyn not come into consideration for this format? He may have been exposed just a little in Tests but the chances of him getting that sort of an examination in LO cricket are much lower. He has a better power game than Zondo IMO.

 

[Niall]

Not sure what is the more depressing thought for South Africa, Zondo getting picked due to quota reasons or because depressingly lack of alternatives. Dude is trash and should be nowhere near an ODI side in 2018.

 

[Prince EWS]

Not sure what is the more depressing thought for South Africa, Zondo getting picked due to quota reasons or because depressingly lack of alternatives. Dude is trash and should be nowhere near an ODI side in 2018.

Especially batting at six. It's a joke. Usually even players who have benefited from quotas are only marginally worse than the alternatives so it doesn't hurt too much, but this is a great example of just how badly it can go.

 

[SeamUp]

It's a potential sneak preview of SA cricket with our big seniors gone really. Our domestic system is currently no breeding ground for international stars anymore.

Just to give an example on Zondo. He was averaging mid 20s not so long ago in franchise cricket. Recent years it has gone up with weaker strength like a number of players/ He is now meant to be an international. Tough on him.

 

[Dendarii]

Are Morris and Phehlukwayo really our best all-round options? Not so much because of their batting as they've both done reasonably well there, but they both average over 30 with the ball, with an economy rate of more than 5.5. So they're not picking up wickets or keeping runs down, which means that they're not doing the job they're being picked for.

But if not them, then who? Philander? Frylinck? Pretorius? Mulder?

We've had so many quality allrounders we've had over the years, but there's definitely been a dearth of them in recent times.

 

[SeamUp]

Are Morris and Phehlukwayo really our best all-round options? Not so much because of their batting as they've both done reasonably well there, but they both average over 30 with the ball, with an economy rate of more than 5.5. So they're not picking up wickets or keeping runs down, which means that they're not doing the job they're being picked for.

But if not them, then who? Philander? Frylinck? Pretorius? Mulder?

We've had so many quality allrounders we've had over the years, but there's definitely been a dearth of them in recent times.

Strike-bowling in ODI's rarely includes caught behind the wickets anymore. So accuracy without being predictable and bowling to a field required more than ever to go with accurate and effective spinners where batsman are made to try and hit the ball.

Saying all that. What is a good ODI average for a bowler these days especially with more runs scored at a quicker rate ? It's interesting.

There seems a big divide. The really good one's still striking with going for runs and then quite a few 30+ averages going at 5.00 + rpo ie Faulkner, Woakes, Morris, Phehlukwayo, Plunkett, M.Marsh, De Grandhomme, Pandya, Southee, Bhuvi,

 

[Dendarii]

Saying all that. What is a good ODI average for a bowler these days especially with more runs scored at a quicker rate ? It's interesting.

That is a good question, and things are interconnected as two players the same strike rate but different economy rates could have rather different averages (not sure how different). So average is perhaps less important than economy, and the question then becomes what is a good economy rate?

Rabada currently goes for 5.06 rpo, so should 5 be taken as some sort of benchmark? Would that still make 5.5 too high, or is anything under 6 still reasonable enough?

 

[SeamUp]

That is a good question, and things are interconnected as two players the same strike rate but different economy rates could have rather different averages (not sure how different). So average is perhaps less important than economy, and the question then becomes what is a good economy rate?

Rabada currently goes for 5.06 rpo, so should 5 be taken as some sort of benchmark? Would that still make 5.5 too high, or is anything under 6 still reasonable enough?

Yeah, very interesting.

Not too long ago I remember thinking when you batted first 250 was the score in mind. You felt 30 runs either side of that you've done really well or at least you still in the game. So that was maybe the bench mark for economy rates.

Today are we looking at the new 250 being 300 ?

Another thing when looking at RPO's is the different times in an innings bowlers bowl if we looking at individuals as benchmarks ? Hard ball up front, power-plays, death etc

 

[GRAB]

Were we making the same sweeping statements when Benkenstein or Martin van Jaarsveld were picked and didn't cover themselves with glory? While not spectacular, he averaged 32 for SA A, which was against many players who are now in International sides... It's as much to do with the team morale he is coming into and inability to answer the questions posed by India's two wrist-spinners...

 

[SeamUp]

As I mentioned in the Tour thread I'm going to reserve my criticism of the newer players for just a little while longer. Klaasen, Zondo and Markram will undoubtedly be better players after this experience. Theoretically that is.

Just a quick thought, why has de Bruyn not come into consideration for this format? He may have been exposed just a little in Tests but the chances of him getting that sort of an examination in LO cricket are much lower. He has a better power game than Zondo IMO.

He is an aggressive batsman and in the tour 50-over and T20 games against the international teams he did score runs whilst everyone else failed.

But with his hard hands he is another who will have to bat in the top 3 for me.

 

[Dendarii]

So here's a thought.

Phehlukwayo scored 23 off 5 balls last night, and he's also been involved in a couple of tricky run chases for South Africa. He definitely has some ability with the bat, so the question is how much ability?

Is there the potential for him to develop into a proper batsman who is just a part-time bowler? Even though he's got wickets in this series he hasn't bowled his full quota of overs in any of the matches, and his performance with the ball has been a little underwhelming.

So would South Africa be better served by bringing in another player to be a frontline bowler and pushing Phehlukwayo up the order? We've been lamenting the lack of a good finisher, but he has shown that he has the ability to clear the boundary at the end of the innings, so the question is whether he can also do the job of rotating the strike in the middle overs.

It's still early enough in his career to make a change and he wouldn't be the first player who's dropped the bowling to become a better batsman. He has yet to register a big score at domestic level, so that could suggest that this idea is a little far-fetched, but that would partly be as a result of coming in down the order and not having the opportunities to play too many long innings.

So crazy idea or not?