S Africa calls for its players to stay

[brockley]

The South African government talked up quotas or transformation,as their is apparently elections coming up.
Really the South African Board have to own this problem,their silence is deafening.

 

[Adders]

Didn't see this.
Back on topic, I think you might be confused by someone saying there is "inequality" in a specific environment and assuming they mean there is "inequality" in the country in general.

Saying that there is racial "inequality" in the selection process of the national cricket team, isn't controversial, or "reprehensible", it's a simple statement of fact.
On the other hand, saying that this means there is racial inequality (against Whites) in the country of South Africa, or even in South African cricket, is very debatable. Perhaps "reprehensible".

One does not necessarily mean the other.

TBF to you Brah, you have been quite clear throughout this thread that you are not saying the quotas are wrong, nor justified........but you are calling them as you perceive than as racial inequality.

I guess I can't really argue with that........because in the simplest terms that's what they are. But IMO this is a massively complex issue that can't simply be brought down to the simplest terms...........there is so much more at stake here than a few white cricketers not getting a fair go, and I don't deny for a second that they aren't.

Edit:

What I mean to say, so a small handful of white cricketers maybe missing out, and people could perceive that to be racial inequality..........but that is so minute in importance compared to the inequality that exists in so many other massively more important facets of life.

 

[TheJediBrah]

TBF to you Brah, you have been quite clear throughout this thread that you are not saying the quotas are wrong, nor justified........but you are calling them as you perceive than as racial inequality.

I guess I can't really argue with that........because in the simplest terms that's what they are. But IMO this is a massively complex issue that can't simply be brought down to the simplest terms...........there is so much more at stake here than a few white cricketers not getting a fair go, and I don't deny for a second that they aren't.

Summarised pretty well exactly what I've been trying to say throughout this thread.

edit: and yeah I've found you have to be pretty clear on here, because there are quite a few people who are looking for something to get upset about and start fights, and will deliberately misunderstand your comments in order to do so.

 

[marc71178]

Its funny it takes a cricinfo author to raise the issue of players leaving.
When will Lorgat and the SA Board address concerns and secondly put policies in place to fix what has turned into panic stations.

Obviously you think it is an easy thing to fix then? What obvious things have they been missing?

 

[brockley]

Better wages for provincial players.
Better agreement between the players and the administration.Like the 1 ACA with the CA.
If their is quotas cut them back a bit.
I have looked at the averages in both competitions,there are players not averaging much,or not taking many wickets still being picked,while people with higher averages and more wickets being dropped.
I think Andrew Birch was dropped for a final he was really in the wickets,and what did he do wrong he was born the wrong colour.

Thats a start Marc.

PS don't ask me how 2 fix democracy in S Africa,I have no idea.Except don't pick a crook as your leader.

 

[Marius]

The South African government talked up quotas or transformation,as their is apparently elections coming up.
Really the South African Board have to own this problem,their silence is deafening.

Next elections in SA are only scheduled for 2019.

 

[TheJediBrah]

What I mean to say, so a small handful of white cricketers maybe missing out, and people could perceive that to be racial inequality..........but that is so minute in importance compared to the inequality that exists in so many other massively more important facets of life.

no doubt. I can understand the players' reasoning for leaving though.

If I was being discriminated against because of my race, in one facet of my life that I cared about the most, and missing out on opportunities I deserve where less-deserving individuals got those opportunities because of their race, I'd leave too. How it relates to the country's political circumstances, or whatever my ancestors did to cause an imbalance, wouldn't change my situation.

 

[Marius]

Quotas are a blunt instrument, and don't work. Franchises should be enocuraged to pick 'players of colour' but being told only five of your pkaying XI can be white is ridiculous. As Brockley rightly points out Andrew Birch was one of the top wicket takers in the T20 comp yet didn't get picked for the final, only because of his skin colour. It's absurd.

Also, having a certain amount of black players in franchise XIs is not going to make much difference to young black cricketers living in townships or rural areas. Having three black players in each franchise XI doesn't lead to nets being built, or having coaching sessions. It's a top-down solution which won't work.

 

[Marius]

Well here's something for you to consider............

View attachment 23078



That's a photo of Cape Town by the way, taken last year. I'm sure I don't need to spell out which side of the road is the white neighbourhood.


Now please........ tell us more about this inequality against whites.

What should happen though? Whites should be stripped of their assets etc?

Inequality is actually higher among black people than in the country as a whole (measured by the Gini co-efficient).

I support redress, but saying 'x numbers of your playing XI must be black' is not redress.

 

[brockley]

Sorry Marius,just something I read which suggested the government was pushing transformation policies,as it would help make the government more popular for a future election.
The government stated it wanted 7 quota players,so far its fallen on deaf ears,I am sure Zuma will get their quotas,even if it means losing players like De villiers or Steyn.

 

[Blocky]

Kyle Abbott expected to shelve South Africa for Hampshire deal | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo

This is really sad, Abbott who looks like one of the best bowlers to be uncovered in some time, is going to go Kolpak and play County Cricket because he doesn't fancy his long term career potential staying in RSA.

 

[Adders]

What should happen though? Whites should be stripped of their assets etc?

Inequality is actually higher among black people than in the country as a whole (measured by the Gini co-efficient).

I support redress, but saying 'x numbers of your playing XI must be black' is not redress.

Mate, I don't mind shouting down the likes of Tetanus when they are spouting ignorant crap.....but I would never dream of arguing these points with a South African who is living this stuff day in day out and who has insurmountable more knowledge than I on the historic and current situation.

I'll attempt to explain my pov but please don't think I'm challenging yours, because I'm in no position to do so.

For a start I'm not even necessarily pro quotas for sport, purely because I don't know if they achieve the goals that they set out to...........but (as I have said on here before) If they can get one black family from the wrong side of the street onto the other then I've got an open mind to them. Honestly, I don't think the success of a cricket team is the major concern here, sacrifices have to made by some people in order for real, tangible redress to happen.......and it will take years, probably hundreds before the blacks are on a true level playing field. And I don't think this is about retribution either, I don't believe the white South Africans should be "punished" even though it may feel like it..........but a majority population was held down for 50 years and now they need a leg up and it doesn't seem too far fetched to me that this leg up may need to come from these sorts of artificial, manipulative measures.

 

[vcs]

Kyle Abbott expected to shelve South Africa for Hampshire deal | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo

This is really sad, Abbott who looks like one of the best bowlers to be uncovered in some time, is going to go Kolpak and play County Cricket because he doesn't fancy his long term career potential staying in RSA.

This would really suck if true though. Surely, his recent success will have changed his mind?

 

[OverratedSanity]

This would really suck if true though. Surely, his recent success will have changed his mind?

Doesn't seem so.

Anyone think he's taken the decision with the assumption that when (if ) Steyn comes back he'll have to make way?

 

[vcs]

Can he defect to India? Surely Vidarbha or Jharkhand or some other Ranji team can make him a reasonable offer he'd be willing to consider. Who could turn down the Nagpur nightlife.

 

[Marius]

Mate, I don't mind shouting down the likes of Tetanus when they are spouting ignorant crap.....but I would never dream of arguing these points with a South African who is living this stuff day in day out and who has insurmountable more knowledge than I on the historic and current situation.

I'll attempt to explain my pov but please don't think I'm challenging yours, because I'm in no position to do so.

For a start I'm not even necessarily pro quotas for sport, purely because I don't know if they achieve the goals that they set out to...........but (as I have said on here before) If they can get one black family from the wrong side of the street onto the other then I've got an open mind to them. Honestly, I don't think the success of a cricket team is the major concern here, sacrifices have to made by some people in order for real, tangible redress to happen.......and it will take years, probably hundreds before the blacks are on a true level playing field. And I don't think this is about retribution either, I don't believe the white South Africans should be "punished" even though it may feel like it..........but a majority population was held down for 50 years and now they need a leg up and it doesn't seem too far fetched to me that this leg up may need to come from these sorts of artificial, manipulative measures.

Yeah, it's a very difficult situation.

Just something that should be highlighted is that of the two current black players in the side - Rabada and Bavuma - are both from solid middle class backgrounds. Bavuma's dad was an editor at a number of big South African newspapers and Rabada's dad is a brain surgeon (and both went to private schools).

So both would probably have done ok in life without affirmative action anyway.

Which is the problem - affirmative action and other redress schemes already benefits the 'insiders' and doesn't really do anything for most people living in grinding poverty and in shacks or rural areas.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Once we start to replicate what England do, we're going to dominate the cricket world so hard. Indian batsmen and spinners, pacers from South Africa and a wicket keeper from Sri Lanka.

 

[kykweer.proteas]

Quotas, BEE and uncertainty of the future. If I had any cricket talent I would also have left to play 3rd team cricket in England.

 

[vcs]

Can someone explain what Kolpak exactly means? Does he become eligible for England after playing County cricket for a while?

 

[vcs]

Yeah, it's a very difficult situation.

Just something that should be highlighted is that of the two current black players in the side - Rabada and Bavuma - are both from solid middle class backgrounds. Bavuma's dad was an editor at a number of big South African newspapers and Rabada's dad is a brain surgeon (and both went to private schools).

So both would probably have done ok in life without affirmative action anyway.

Which is the problem - affirmative action and other redress schemes already benefits the 'insiders' and doesn't really do anything for most people living in grinding poverty and in shacks or rural areas.

Yeah, this does tend to happen. We have caste based reservations in Indian colleges and people with rich financial backgrounds, but historically repressed castes often get a leg up.

It's a tough tough problem to solve. Have no clue what the answer is and how the correct balance should be maintained.