The Great Captains

[wpdavid]

Btw, I want to have a little say on the whole Ponting argument that has sprung up on here. Was he a great captain? Certainly. Was he Australia's greatest? ... Well I don't think so, although a year ago I would probably have said yes. This is simply because Ponting's ability to beat better sides was severely affected when he lost McGrath and Warne and it was during his time that issues with Clarke and Watson arose in the dressing room and he never truly managed to quell those problems.

As you've probably guessed, Ponting won't be on this list but if it was a top 10, then he would get in.

Nah, you're having us on. From an Engish pov, we'll always appreciate his handing us a lifeline in 2005 when he inserted us at Edgbaston, and four years later not being able to take advantage of having a distinctly superior bunch of players to England.

 

[listento_me]

Nah, you're having us on. From an Engish pov, we'll always appreciate his handing us a lifeline in 2005 when he inserted us at Edgbaston, and four years later not being able to take advantage of having a distinctly superior bunch of players to England.

the 2009 Australian side wasnt that much better than England, actually I feel England had a better balanced side

fella, you could have a think tank of brearly, jardine, khan and lloyd in charge of a team that just lost mcgrath and warne and they'd still struggle massively to re-create the same dominance.

its such a weird criticism of ponting.

Khan and Lloyd both had to re-build teams from scratch or bare bones. Ponting was never able to do that to the same level. It's a criticism yes but one merely used to distinguish one great from another.

Before I started researching for this, I was of the opinion that Ponting was probably a top 3 captain but the monumental tasks that some other captains had surpass Ponting, who is certainly great either way.

 

[Burgey]

Btw, I want to have a little say on the whole Ponting argument that has sprung up on here. Was he a great captain? Certainly. Was he Australia's greatest? ... Well I don't think so, although a year ago I would probably have said yes. This is simply because Ponting's ability to beat better sides was severely affected when he lost McGrath and Warne and it was during his time that issues with Clarke and Watson arose in the dressing room and he never truly managed to quell those problems.

As you've probably guessed, Ponting won't be on this list but if it was a top 10, then he would get in.

I don't think he's tactically in the top few captains at all. Odd comment tbh.

 

[wpdavid]

Khan and Lloyd both had to re-build teams from scratch or bare bones. Ponting was never able to do that to the same level. It's a criticism yes but one merely used to distinguish one great from another.

Lloyd inherited a pretty decent hand. IIRC there was him, Kallicheran, Fredericks, Rowe Murray, Boyce and Julien, who were all very solid performers. And I think Roberts had made a handful of appearances under Kanhai, too. He then gained Richards and Greenidge immediately, with Holding coming along soon afterwards, shortly followed by the other quicks of course. There have been tougher tasks in life than building a decent side from those guys, even allowing for the retirements of Kanhai, Sobers and Gibbs.

I do react a bit against Lloyd blowing his own trumpet about how he transformed WI cricket away from the calypso cricket mentality into something more effective. Again from an English pov, but under Kanhai they beat us comfortably in England in 1973 and looked pretty strong doing it. Yes, we escaped with a draw the following winter, but we were lucky.

 

[listento_me]

I don't think he's tactically in the top few captains at all. Odd comment tbh.

not mentioning Allan Boredome ... I mean Border, is odd too

 

[Bijed]

Nah, you're having us on. From an Engish pov, we'll always appreciate his handing us a lifeline in 2005 when he inserted us at Edgbaston, and four years later not being able to take advantage of having a distinctly superior bunch of players to England.

A decision made for the greater good of test cricket. WAG.

 

[Furball]

fella, you could have a think tank of brearly, jardine, khan and lloyd in charge of a team that just lost mcgrath and warne and they'd still struggle massively to re-create the same dominance.

its such a weird criticism of ponting.

It's also dubious as to how true it is.

Post Warne/McGrath:

Sri Lanka (h) W 2-0
India (h) W 2-1 (an improvement on 2003/04)
West Indies (a) W 2-0
India (a) L 0-2 (losing in India not uncommon under Waugh/Taylor)
New Zealand (h) W 2-0
South Africa (h) L 1-2
South Africa (a) W 2-1
England (a) L 1-2 (exactly same result as 4 years previous)
West Indies (h) W 2-0
Pakistan (h) W 3-0
New Zealand (a) W 2-0
Pakistan (n) D 1-1
India (a) L 0-2
England (h) L 1-2 (not counting Sydney as Clarke captained)

It's not exactly a terrible record. The wheels came off a bit in the last 6 months but up until the end of the New Zealand series in 2009/10 Australia were excellent.

Only real criticism is the home series losses but that required a mega run chase from South Africa in Perth and an England side touring at the collective peak. Losses in India are nothing to be ashamed of as they're a very hard nut to crack at home.

I don't really see anything post Warne/McGrath to be ashamed of.

P42 W21 D8 L13 isn't a bad record for an apparently hopeless captain - and a lot of the losses, particularly post Ashes 2009, can be laid at the door of Australia's batsmen rather than weaker bowlers.

 

[Red]

Was he a great captain? Certainly. Was he Australia's greatest? ... Well I don't think so, although a year ago I would probably have said yes. This is simply because Ponting's ability to beat better sides was severely affected when he lost McGrath and Warne

Surprisingly, when the greatest spinner of all time, and the greatest quick of all time, retired from the one team, the captain found winning games more difficult without them....

 

[listento_me]

I think arguments on whether or not Ponting was a great captain is redundant. Top 10 certainly.

 

[Furball]

When exactly did McGrath go down lame at Edgbaston?

Because if it was after the toss then Ponting's decision to insert was bold and aggressive, and probably the right move given how cheaply England had folded twice at Lord's.

If it was after McGrath went down then it's the most idiotic captaincy decision of all time. Although in fairness Australia did bowl England out within 80 overs, which is generally a good thing when you've inserted a team. Just a shame that relying on the 2005 versions of Lee and Gillespie to lead an attack in McGrath's absence was a recipe for disaster.

 

[Adders]

It was the later and therefore the most idiotic decision of all time.

Ponting can be forgiven for misreading the condition of the pitch, but having lost McGrath and his only bowling weapon being a spinner.........you just don't bowl first.

Edit:

And I don't think Warne has forgiven him to this day.

 

[Furball]

I get why he did it. In hindsight the sensible thing would have been to put pressure on England by piling on loads of runs but at the same time you just can't legislate for an international class bowler bowling as badly as Brett Lee did that day.

 

[Adders]

Yeah that's fair enough, and if Lee had performed and they had rolled us for 250ish then no one would be questioning it.

But logically when the best bowler (by a country mile and then some) in your team is a spinner, you want him bowling in the 2nd and 4th innings.

 

[Burgey]

It was the wrong call for certain, though I think his reasoning was they'd gone through England's batting at Lord's and he thought they would fold again. Bit arrogant in that regard, given the best bowler from that's Lord's test had just got injured.

 

[Bijed]

I think teams batting first at Edgbaston generally don't win, which was probably a factor in his decision.

Stats preview: The bat-first disadvantage at Edgbaston | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo

In between that test and the Pakistan one this year, there were 2 draws and the team batting first lost the other 5. Not sure about the stats leading up to Edgbaston 2005.

 

[Burgey]

Plus it's Birmingham ffs. He probably hoped they'd roll england cheaply so they could get out of there a day or two early.

 

[listento_me]

It was the later and therefore the most idiotic decision of all time.

Ponting can be forgiven for misreading the condition of the pitch, but having lost McGrath and his only bowling weapon being a spinner.........you just don't bowl first.

Edit:

And I don't think Warne has forgiven him to this day.

yeah , Warneys brought it up a few times

It was the wrong call for certain, though I think his reasoning was they'd gone through England's batting at Lord's and he thought they would fold again. Bit arrogant in that regard, given the best bowler from that's Lord's test had just got injured.

People talk about that decision as if that's the only way Australia lost...no, England out played them, repeatedly.

 

[Adders]

I think teams batting first at Edgbaston generally don't win, which was probably a factor in his decision.

Stats preview: The bat-first disadvantage at Edgbaston | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo

In between that test and the Pakistan one this year, there were 2 draws and the team batting first lost the other 5. Not sure about the stats leading up to Edgbaston 2005.

At the toss Ponting said he thought the wicket was a day or 2 behind........they had monsoonal weather in the week leading up to the test and I think he did miss read the conditions for batting.

But that's fair enough and can be forgiven........wouldn't be the first and won't be the last touring skipper to misjudge a wicket. But for me I still can't look beyond the fact he made the call despite knowing his ATG fast bowler was ruled out.

All that said though, captains always carry the can for these calls but I very much doubt they make them on their own.

 

[Furball]

Given Australia ended day 3 eight down in their 2nd innings it's not as if he got things massively wrong. And they did bowl England out on day 1, which is normally a victory if you've inserted the opposition, most teams won't score at 5 an over for a day.

 

[vitalogy83]

I've greatly enjoyed reading this thread and seeing Arjuna's name listed as a contender. Truly it cannot be underscored more what he did for SL. This is a guy who opened the doors of his house so players had a place to crash who were coming from out of Colombo. In many ways, he was what AB was for Aus in those years when SL was just heading nowhere. It is also hard to ignore that 95 tour to Aus which really brought the team together. And perhaps in many ways gave AR the drive to leave SL somewhere significant. The way he fought for Murali. The way he challenged the best side in the world - the umpires, the players - It really was inspirational stuff for not just the players but for kids watching cricket back in SL. The likes of Sanga's and Mahela's if you will.

It is also a great shame when you look at where he is now. That legacy he had is slowly being killed by his political career and his comments on the sport in SL.