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The Great Captains

CapeTown Guy

School Boy/Girl Captain
Regarding Ponting - he never really struck me as a great captain per se. He did a tremendous job of leading one of the ATG through setting the tone with his brilliancy. In my opinion, he was more of a 'lead from the front, follow his example' type leader than a particularly tactically astute one. The Steven Gerrard of cricket captains, if you will.

From a SA perspective, how well is Ali Bacher regarded? As as player his record isn't too impressive, but he did lead what was certainly SA's greatest team until the emergence of Amla, Steyn, De Villiers (to accompany Kallis and Smith),
 

TNT

Banned
It was the later and therefore the most idiotic decision of all time.

Ponting can be forgiven for misreading the condition of the pitch, but having lost McGrath and his only bowling weapon being a spinner.........you just don't bowl first.

Edit:

And I don't think Warne has forgiven him to this day.
Wasn't Warne one of the players that wanted to bowl first?.

Edit: just reread Pontings book and it was Warnie who was the only one who didn't want to bowl first, the rest of the team wanted to bowl first.
 
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listento_me

U19 Captain
I've greatly enjoyed reading this thread and seeing Arjuna's name listed as a contender. Truly it cannot be underscored more what he did for SL. This is a guy who opened the doors of his house so players had a place to crash who were coming from out of Colombo. In many ways, he was what AB was for Aus in those years when SL was just heading nowhere. It is also hard to ignore that 95 tour to Aus which really brought the team together. And perhaps in many ways gave AR the drive to leave SL somewhere significant. The way he fought for Murali. The way he challenged the best side in the world - the umpires, the players - It really was inspirational stuff for not just the players but for kids watching cricket back in SL. The likes of Sanga's and Mahela's if you will.

It is also a great shame when you look at where he is now. That legacy he had is slowly being killed by his political career and his comments on the sport in SL.
If we were talking simply about man management, the 2 best from what I've read, seen and heard are Khan and Ranatunga.
 

listento_me

U19 Captain
Steve Waugh

“Instead of flamboyance, the keynote of Waugh's captaincy was continuity. He existed, even in an age of abundance, as a reminder of harder, leaner days in Australian cricket…”​
Gideon Haigh​

Legacy. The one word that defines so many great athletes and their careers. It is also one of the key elements of captaincy. Can the man in charge leave his team in a better place than he found it? With Steve Waugh, is has the greatest legacy of any Australian test and ODI captain, following the lean years of the 1980s it was Mark Taylor who brought Australia back near to the top but it would be Waugh who would complete the recovery and start a new dynasty. It would all start with a drawn test series against the still top class West Indies and end in a tightly contested series against India.

That reign, which encompassed almost half a decade, a world cup win, 10 of the 16 unbeaten series and theatres of war from Asia and the middle east to the old enemy England and a new threat in South Africa. Australia won and they won pretty much everywhere. They did it in very much the Steve Waugh mould: grit, hard work and no compromise. There would be infarctions and Waugh’s Australians probably took sledging a bit too far but they were very much a team who would do anything to win. It wasn’t always pretty but it was effective. Intimidation was no longer an option it was the default.

Waugh was also a student of the game. He learnt from Taylor and Khan before him that spin could be put to good use as an attacking option. Warne became an attacking option unlike any. He would bowl to fields the likes of which other captains were not brave enough to try. Then there was the use of bounce and at times pace, when needed and when possible. Glenn McGrath was not the quickest but his height provided him with a steep bouncer. Waugh used it. With Jason Gillespie and Brett Lee, Waugh had pace options too. Again, it worked wonders for this tough new Australian outfit.

The first true port of call was the world cup. Australia started off bad, losing to both Pakistan and New Zealand but managed to finish the group off strong enough to be runners up in the group. Australia were playing a brand of cricket and tactics which fans did not always like or appreciate. Then again, that familiar Steve Waugh retort, “We’re not here to make friends mate.” Indeed. Australia reached the final in a cloud of controversy against arguably the best ODI side on the planet. Pakistan were shredded apart. Australia were ruthless. No retreat. All out for the win. They would not lose a world cup for another 12 years.

It is the Ashes that have come to define Australian cricketers and captains for so long. He would captain Australia in 2 Ashes series and 9 tests, winning 8. He would shatter English hopes by an innings on 4 of those occasions. Waugh’s Australians were ruthless but never more so when playing the old enemy. Has any Australian captain ever treated the English with such disdain? Has any been so ruthless? When Waugh had them in his sights, he would not hesitate to pull the trigger. No rivalry has been so one-sided.

The question remains how much longer Waugh could have carried n as captain. He certainly did not like being dismissed, then again the same had happened with Taylor some years earlier. Australia however, would carry on. They were still uncompromising under the tutelage of Gilchrist and Ponting. Still playing a hard, possibly ugly (unsporting?) game of cricket. The reality is, Waugh’s Australians did not win fans the way Lloy’s Windies side or Khan’s Pakistanis but it is impossible to deny their impact. South Africa attempted to play a similar brand of uncompromising cricket, minus the sledging. Ganguly’s India tried to replicate the attacking edge. Waugh had left his mark.

It wasn’t always pretty but it was effective.

Captain Tests 57 ODIs 106
Won 41 67
Lost 9 35
Draw/Tie 7 4​
 

listento_me

U19 Captain
I wont be able to post up the final write up (just finishing it off) cos I'm going to the fight. So Ill have it up tomorrow probably.

Enjoy.
 

listento_me

U19 Captain
Clive Lloyd

“We were happy, they were happy, the Caribbean was happy. Cricket is a very important part of our structure and we need to bring that back.”
Clive Lloyd​

I have started each piece with something written about the captain in question by someone else but with Clive Lloyd, who so came to define West Indies cricket for so long, I felt the words should be left to him and him alone. Lloyd carved the West Indies in a new image, gone was the unfair description of “Calypso cricketers” and the perception that they knew how to have fun and could be very good but they could never sustain it. Lloyd’s teams and the teams that followed, built on the foundations he lay down would go onto dominate world cricket for almost two decades. The numbers are spectacular, 29 test series unbeaten, across 15 years with 20 wins. 8 of the wins in this unbeaten period would belong to Lloyd. Remarkable.

Beyond mere numbers, there is a deeper story. One of divided loyalties and uncertainties, of money, professionalism and a brand of cricket which created fans. The West Indians of the ‘70s and ‘80s were a superstar team unlike any other. Many watched their own sides bowled over by their ferocity…and enjoyed it. It was Lloyd who imbued this professional attitude. Play fair, play hard and play to win. It also meant turning up to training on time, being dedicated and putting in as much time on fielding as players would do on batting and bowling. West Indies became the first truly modern cricket team. However, none of that would have mattered if the results did not follow.
Originally, Lloyd built his side on sound batting. Greenidge and Richards came in, swashbuckling battlers who both oozed class. Lloyd himself was a sound batsman and coupled with an exceptional batting unit, they did away with India. Then came the ignominy of Australia. They lost and it was embarrassing. Lloyd and the players he had brought along with him swore that it would never happen again. The first port of call was England.

Greig antagonised and the West Indies responded. Holding and Roberts would batter the batsmen whereas Richards and Greenidge would top score with strike rates of over 60. It was a thorough beating, one from which the English did not recover for several generations. The West Indies would be their nightmare, even more so than Australia, for many years to come. They had looked good while winning too. The swagger of Richards, the grin of Greenidge, the mask of Roberts and the lithe beauty of Holding. This was a team for the purists and among it all stood the giant, accountant-esque figure Clive Lloyd. He was very much the brains behind the outfit and he was working on something bigger.

Success, even as emphatic as it was against England would not be enough. Lloyd wanted to create a team of brothers and mend the divisions between islands. Rooms were shared accordingly, islanders were mixed and alliances forged. It was with this spirit of brotherhood and swagger that they arrived in Australia and lay waste to all before them. Australia were bowled out for under 300 on 5 occasions and both wins were by large margins. Lloyd had taken all that pent up frustration and unleashed it in a controlled, methodical manner. Gone was the calypso, now there was a team built in a way that would inspire teams of the future, both at home and abroad.

Ultimately, Lloyd’s legacy and influence is unmatched in any other cricket team and possibly all sport. He managed to build a team which would go onto dominate for a decade after his own retirement. The players he moulded would all become true greats in their own right. Two world cup wins and an unbeaten streak unlikely to ever be replicated, let alone surpassed. Clive Lloyd was a man of cricketing principles; upon which he would not compromise. It worked wonders for his nation and the game as a whole.

Captained Tests 74 ODIs 84
Won 36 64
Lost 12 18
Draw/Tie 26 2​
 

Slifer

International Captain
Thanks for not buying into the flawed theory that Lloyd wasn't a great captain. I've heard many on hear say oh he had great players his job was easy bla bla bla. As if the likes of Waugh, Taylor, Ponting didn't also captain champion players. Loyd took over the west indies and built into the world conquering unit it would eventually become. People underestimate this point, but cricket is the only sport where the countries/islands of the caribbean compete in as a single unit. Lloyd made sure than players from different rival countries intermingled etc etc.
 

listento_me

U19 Captain
Thanks for not buying into the flawed theory that Lloyd wasn't a great captain. I've heard many on hear say oh he had great players his job was easy bla bla bla. As if the likes of Waugh, Taylor, Ponting didn't also captain champion players. Loyd took over the west indies and built into the world conquering unit it would eventually become. People underestimate this point, but cricket is the only sport where the countries/islands of the caribbean compete in as a single unit. Lloyd made sure than players from different rival countries intermingled etc etc.
This place often has useless opinions that are contrary to cricket. Everyone involved in cricket, whose opinions matter rank Lloyd very high, if not at the top. Over the course of my research, I kept looking at ways Lloyd couldn't be number one because it seemed like such an obvious pick but I couldn't find ways to rank Khan or Ponting or Jardine or Smith higher. I just couldn't.
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
Well done for taking the time to put these pieces together. Irrespective of whether I agree with them, they were a good read and stimulated enjoyable discussions.

Less well done on your last post which is incredibly arrogant towards those who had the temerity to disagree with you over Lloyd. People will have different opinions to you mate, and maybe with maturity you'll learn how to handle them better.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
This place often has useless opinions that are contrary to cricket. Everyone involved in cricket, whose opinions matter rank Lloyd very high, if not at the top.
I'm not sure if by "this place" you mean CW, but most forums have some useless opinions!

Some of the valid criticism levelled at Lloyd are that the tactics he used with his quicks were boring and unimaginative. No one wants to see unhittable bouncers bowled all day. No doubting though that Lloyd was a great leader of men.
 

TNT

Banned
Ultimately, Lloyd’s legacy and influence is unmatched in any other cricket team and possibly all sport. He managed to build a team which would go onto dominate for a decade after his own retirement. The players he moulded would all become true greats in their own right. Two world cup wins and an unbeaten streak unlikely to ever be replicated, let alone surpassed. Clive Lloyd was a man of cricketing principles; upon which he would not compromise. It worked wonders for his nation and the game as a whole.
The same could be said for Mark Taylor, he moulded a team that went onto become dominate for a decade winning WC's and winning 16 tests in a row.
 

Slifer

International Captain
I'm not sure if by "this place" you mean CW, but most forums have some useless opinions!

Some of the valid criticism levelled at Lloyd are that the tactics he used with his quicks were boring and unimaginative. No one wants to see unhittable bouncers bowled all day. No doubting though that Lloyd was a great leader of men.
But there in lies part of the problem, Lloyd's fast bowlers did not bowl unhittable bouncers all day. They certainly didn't bowl any more than their contemporaries: Lillee, Thompson, Imran, Safraz, Pascoe, Etc. There were usually 3 sometimes 4 quality fast bowlers who used their bouncers to intimidate batsmen ala the English fast men in the ashes. You don't have strike rates in the low fifties and high forties bowling bouncers all day.

The only people who criticize Lloyd are hypocritical aussie and English cricketing aficionados (maybe Sunil Gavaskar lol).
 

listento_me

U19 Captain
To the two posters offended by my comment about opinions on this forum. It wasn't about opinions en mass, what is was is to those who post on here and claim that Lloyd can't be number one or wasn't great. I was responding to that.
 

listento_me

U19 Captain
The same could be said for Mark Taylor, he moulded a team that went onto become dominate for a decade winning WC's and winning 16 tests in a row.
It was more Waughs legacy (carried on by Ponting), rather than Taylor's. Yes he did a terrific job introducing certain players but it was Waugh who molded the modern Australian psyche, provided some of its greatest highs, won a world cup and started the second best unbeaten run of all time.
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
It was more Waughs legacy (carried on by Ponting), rather than Taylor's. Yes he did a terrific job introducing certain players but it was Waugh who molded the modern Australian psyche, provided some of its greatest highs, won a world cup and started the second best unbeaten run of all time.
[inb4Burgey] Waugh learned all that from Border.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Waugh was overrated. A tough cricketer but not all that great tactically. Had an all-time great team at a time when most other teams were in decline. Lost series in India and Sri Lanka. Failed to defend 300 plus scores twice and 400 once despite an all-time great attack.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Mark Taylor was brilliant tactically, under him Australia became no. 1 and defeated strong world class teams like WI, Pakistan and South Africa both home and away.
 

Slifer

International Captain
Awta. Taylor beat WI in 95 where WI were favorites, repeated the trick in 96/97 and WI then we're still a very good side (particularly in 95). Ditto Taylors triumphs versus RSA and Pakistan.
 

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