The Great Captains

[honestbharani]

Yep. Listening to and reading a lot of the material surrounding one of the Pak/Windies series in the WI there seems to have been some outright terrible umpiring that saved them from losing to Pakistan and thus losing the series.

I am sure the series in Pak all had quality impartial umpiring though.

 

[listento_me]

During the era of West Indian domination (late-'70s to early-'90s), Pakistan were certainly the second best team.

I dunno about the late 70s but certianly throughout much of the 80s and the early 90s. You can see a down slide in the test side in the late 90s but the ODI side remained strong for a few more years.

when we talk about those 3 WI series , we need to remember a few more things.Firstly only Marshall among the fab 4 remained 'non retired' for those series.Walsh who debuted in 85 0r 86 was there though.Others were debutants Ambrose & Bishop. Similarly in the batting too, WI was going thru a transition phase though they were still the no: 1 team.Lloyd had retired by that time. Even other experienced batsmen including Viv didn't play all those tests. For PAK Imran could afford to play as a pure batsman( not the normal heavy workload of an all rounder) with the inclusion of Waqar(debutant though).
And PAK had more variety in their attck with the quality spinners + left handed quick Wasim.I would say PAK was better in bowling strength while WI was slightly better in batting strength.Clashes of 2 more or less equal sides. Being the captain, Imran could take the credit.

You're trying to make out as if the Windies team were under powered or something against Pakistan but this is the same side that beat EVERYONE ELSE. It doesn't matter who's debuting and who's not, the Windies had the best unit of players at that point and it carried their dominance well into the 90s.

 

[Burgey]

He was pretty crap out here as captain tbh, aside from the 92 WC. Probably didn't have terrifically strong sides all the time though.

 

[subshakerz]

when we talk about those 3 WI series , we need to remember a few more things.Firstly only Marshall among the fab 4 remained 'non retired' for those series.Walsh who debuted in 85 0r 86 was there though.Others were debutants Ambrose & Bishop. Similarly in the batting too, WI was going thru a transition phase though they were still the no: 1 team.Lloyd had retired by that time. Even other experienced batsmen including Viv didn't play all those tests. For PAK Imran could afford to play as a pure batsman( not the normal heavy workload of an all rounder) with the inclusion of Waqar(debutant though).
And PAK had more variety in their attck with the quality spinners + left handed quick Wasim.I would say PAK was better in bowling strength while WI was slightly better in batting strength.Clashes of 2 more or less equal sides. Being the captain, Imran could take the credit.

Slightly disagree. The WI batting with Greenidge, Haynes, Richardson and Richards was far superior to Pakistan's in the series in Pakistan in 86 and in WI in 88. Pakistan only had Javed as a worldclass batsman.

What is true is that Holding and Garner had retired by 86 so the bowling was not quite as lethal. Still, Marshall was the best bowler in the world and Walsh was world class. Qadir gave Pakistan a slight edge in bowling in the 86 and 88 series.

In the 1990 series, Imran, Qadir and Marshall were past their best as bowlers, but WI had Ambrose, Bishop and Walsh and Pakistan had Wasim and Waqar, so there was some parity.

Post 1986, WI clearly were the no.1 team still but could only draw series in India, Pakistan and NZ. Still the fact that Imran was the only captain to win a test against the WI at their home in the 80s and and return undefeated is perhaps his greatest test achievement as captain.

The drawn series in WI was clearly a case where a captain from a slightly weaker team managed throughhis leadership to allow his team to overachieve against a better team in their own backyard.

 

[subshakerz]

I am sure the series in Pak all had quality impartial umpiring though.

Imran insisted for neutral umpires for the WI series at home from what I recall.

 

[honestbharani]

Yeah I remember reading about it but I think it only happened in one tour after the issues with the other tours that happened. He gets major points for doing that though. WAG. But its just a bit rich to blame a Pak loss away due to umpiring given its the 80s we are talking about.

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah I remember reading about it but I think it only happened in one tour after the issues with the other tours that happened. He gets major points for doing that though. WAG. But its just a bit rich to blame a Pak loss away due to umpiring given its the 80s we are talking about.

The real match in question is Brigdetown in the second innings when WI completed their chase.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/63483.html

A good article on it is here: The coup that wasn't | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[AndrewB]

Imran insisted for neutral umpires for the WI series at home from what I recall.

They had Pakistani umpires in the first Test (the one Pakistan won), then neutral umpires for the other two.

 

[listento_me]

They had Pakistani umpires in the first Test (the one Pakistan won), then neutral umpires for the other two.

I get that and there were problems with home umpires all over the world at the time but there is specific mention of Pak v Windies 86 by almost everyone who has written about that series, far more than the home umpiring in Pakistan. I can't remember the details but if you were alive back then you should know it, if not just look it up. That series had a couple of big decisions that were plainly bad...not borderline, just bad.

Anyway, to the credit of Pakistan and Khan, they pushed time and time again for neutral umpires.