***Official*** England in India 2016/17

[Pothas]

Well I hope we are finished with three spinners thing so him not being called up does not actually make any difference.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Tbf to Rogers, he had to put in about 15 good domestic seasons before he got a decent run in the test side.

That said, I'd have taken Leach to Bangladesh and India and am actually quite surprised that he didn't go out as part of this change to the squad,

Yes I suspect that probably has something to do with it. I guess where experience becomes important in sport is it often compensates for people who haven't got the intelligence to think fully, starting with a clean slate, about things. There's intelligence which very few people have, which means they can think creatively regardless of whether they've experienced a similar situation before and often start new trends. There's sporting intelligence which is what most people have which is largely based on experience and means when something new comes along they haven't much of a clue. Sporting intelligence generally means they have very regimented, party-line thinking based on their experience. Such as for instance the way Australian captains have blindly stopped enforcing the follow-on because of one match in India and others have almost copied them really leading to a situation in modern cricket where not enforcing follow-ons is the fashion. This gormless way of thinking in the English set up is that finger spinners are bit part players regardless who should be able to bat, field and then roll their arm over for a few minutes. For a long time in ODIs it meant aiming for 240+ because they're too stupid to properly interpret statistics.

 

[Bijed]

Well I hope we are finished with three spinners thing so him not being called up does not actually make any difference.

Yeah, Broad in for Batty, assuming his foots alright. Though we'll probably go for Dawson instead.

 

[hazsa19]

Yeah, Broad in for Batty, assuming his foots alright. Though we'll probably go for Dawson instead.

I've given up trying to predict selection this Winter. Buttler to open #intent

 

[Furball]

Yes I suspect that probably has something to do with it. I guess where experience becomes important in sport is it often compensates for people who haven't got the intelligence to think fully, starting with a clean slate, about things. There's intelligence which very few people have, which means they can think creatively regardless of whether they've experienced a similar situation before and often start new trends. There's sporting intelligence which is what most people have which is largely based on experience and means when something new comes along they haven't much of a clue. Sporting intelligence generally means they have very regimented, party-line thinking based on their experience. Such as for instance the way Australian captains have blindly stopped enforcing the follow-on because of one match in India and others have almost copied them really leading to a situation in modern cricket where not enforcing follow-ons is the fashion. This gormless way of thinking in the English set up is that finger spinners are bit part players regardless who should be able to bat, field and then roll their arm over for a few minutes. For a long time in ODIs it meant aiming for 240+ because they're too stupid to properly interpret statistics.

Teams have stopped enforcing the follow on because making your quicks bowl 120+ overs is ****ing insane.

 

[Woodster]

On the spinners debate, I think it's a difficult one for the selectors to get it right, not that I personally have agreed with the selections they have made in this department, but there are no obvious options after Moeen Ali and now Adil Rashid has made a strong case for inclusion going forward. Of course Jack Leach should have been discussed after the season he has had, but he is only a realistic option at this stage of his career because our complete lack of decent options. I understand them being cautious with him, the wheels could easily have come off for him against India who play spin exceptionally well, and that could have set him back years, ask Simon Kerrigan.

Liam Dawson is obviously more experienced, has played over 100 first-class games and has been around the England set-up for a while. It's not a particularly exciting selection and not one I necessarily agree with, but obviously his brand of left-arm spin is made to contain and try and build some pressure. All the spinner's considered have their own attributes but obviously are not strong in all areas, just depends what the selectors after. I'm not sure it matters too much who we go with as I'd imagine they'll all struggle to assert themselves on this confident Indian side.

 

[Pup Clarke]

Mark Wood has been a massive loss to this side. Surprised there's not been more clamour for Ball to play. TRJ and Plunkett other options as well

 

[Woodster]

Seam bowling is our strength and gives us our best chance to have that control in the field, alongside the wicket-taking threat of Rashid.

Yes Wood has been a big blow and I am a fan of Ball personally. It's pure hindsight on my part now to suggest we should have stuck to our strength and gone with 4 quicks this tour. Been really impressed with Shami and Yadav aswell.

 

[social]

Teams have stopped enforcing the follow on because making your quicks bowl 120+ overs is ****ing insane.

Please dont contradict the World Snakes & Ladders Champion

 

[social]

Seam bowling is our strength and gives us our best chance to have that control in the field, alongside the wicket-taking threat of Rashid.

Yes Wood has been a big blow and I am a fan of Ball personally. It's pure hindsight on my part now to suggest we should have stuck to our strength and gone with 4 quicks this tour. Been really impressed with Shami and Yadav aswell.

Yep and particularly now that Vijay looks completely gun-shy against pace

Teams always make the mistake of thinking that they have to play at least 2 spinners in India irrespective of their quality

 

[Woodster]

Yep and particularly now that Vijay looks completely gun-shy against pace

Teams always make the mistake of thinking that they have to play at least 2 spinners in India irrespective of their quality

This is a mistake we've made time and again though, and maybe I even thought it might work this time, but when you don't have the quality in the spin department and more quality in the pace area, then it makes sense to go pace heavy. We have the luxury of Ben Stokes, a top six batter and a very decent pace bowler aswell and this gives us the option of a third spinner, with four quicks being deemed excessive, but we just don't have the quality spinners to justify three of them.

 

[hazsa19]

Yep and particularly now that Vijay looks completely gun-shy against pace

Teams always make the mistake of thinking that they have to play at least 2 spinners in India irrespective of their quality

Yeh. And for a team that focuses so much time and effort on analysis, I'm amazed by the selection of Ansari/ batty so far.

As an example- 1st Innings of the 3rd test, Batty bowled 16 overs, Ali 13 overs, out of 139. Another seamer would probably carry more threat than Batty, bowl more overs, and if not Ali could/should bowl more.

 

[social]

So what are people's thoughts on Jennings.

From what I've read, he is left handed and not particularly adept at playing spin.

Ashwin says "thank you"

 

[Scaly piscine]

On the spinners debate, I think it's a difficult one for the selectors to get it right, not that I personally have agreed with the selections they have made in this department, but there are no obvious options after Moeen Ali and now Adil Rashid has made a strong case for inclusion going forward. Of course Jack Leach should have been discussed after the season he has had, but he is only a realistic option at this stage of his career because our complete lack of decent options. I understand them being cautious with him, the wheels could easily have come off for him against India who play spin exceptionally well, and that could have set him back years, ask Simon Kerrigan.

Liam Dawson is obviously more experienced, has played over 100 first-class games and has been around the England set-up for a while. It's not a particularly exciting selection and not one I necessarily agree with, but obviously his brand of left-arm spin is made to contain and try and build some pressure. All the spinner's considered have their own attributes but obviously are not strong in all areas, just depends what the selectors after. I'm not sure it matters too much who we go with as I'd imagine they'll all struggle to assert themselves on this confident Indian side.

Sorry but the selectors do not create Simon Kerrigan scenarios. If a guy is going to meltdown like that then he was never going to be cut out for Test cricket in the first place, and it was going to happen regardless.

Simon Kerrigan does not justify any selection or non-selection in the future. He is an irrelevance.

If Leach is your best spinner then pick him. Unfortunately 100+ FC games doesn't suddenly make crap spinners like Batty and Dawson effective. They're fundamentally not good enough to be bowling in Test cricket and no amount of that magic experience ingredient is going to make them good enough.

 

[ImpatientLime]

On the spinners debate, I think it's a difficult one for the selectors to get it right, not that I personally have agreed with the selections they have made in this department, but there are no obvious options after Moeen Ali and now Adil Rashid has made a strong case for inclusion going forward. Of course Jack Leach should have been discussed after the season he has had, but he is only a realistic option at this stage of his career because our complete lack of decent options. I understand them being cautious with him, the wheels could easily have come off for him against India who play spin exceptionally well, and that could have set him back years, ask Simon Kerrigan.

Liam Dawson is obviously more experienced, has played over 100 first-class games and has been around the England set-up for a while. It's not a particularly exciting selection and not one I necessarily agree with, but obviously his brand of left-arm spin is made to contain and try and build some pressure. All the spinner's considered have their own attributes but obviously are not strong in all areas, just depends what the selectors after. I'm not sure it matters too much who we go with as I'd imagine they'll all struggle to assert themselves on this confident Indian side.

i love this thing in cricket where we describe an unthreatening spinner as someone who can contain and build pressure.

liam dawson goes at over 3 RPO in first class cricket.

 

[Shady Slim]

building pressure is actually a thing though see steve o'keefe who takes poles by doing that

 

[Shady Slim]

taking wickets and building pressure aren't mutually exclusive

 

[Bijed]

taking wickets and building pressure aren't mutually exclusive

Yeah, if there's one thing I've learnt from following English cricket it's that losing quick wickets puts a team under pressure

 

[Woodster]

Sorry but the selectors do not create Simon Kerrigan scenarios. If a guy is going to meltdown like that then he was never going to be cut out for Test cricket in the first place, and it was going to happen regardless.

Simon Kerrigan does not justify any selection or non-selection in the future. He is an irrelevance.

If Leach is your best spinner then pick him. Unfortunately 100+ FC games doesn't suddenly make crap spinners like Batty and Dawson effective. They're fundamentally not good enough to be bowling in Test cricket and no amount of that magic experience ingredient is going to make them good enough.

Completely disagree. My point is that they don't know what they're going to get with a guy that has had one decent season, he represents a risky selection on the basis that he hasn't been tested in all situations and all kinds of conditions. How sure are you that he won't have a Kerrigan-like time if he was selected for India, but more importantly how sure can the selectors be? I'm not saying he'd necessarily fail but maybe they have a longer term plan with him and feeding him to the lions in India is probably not an ideal start for him.

I accept just because a guy has played over 100 first-class games he's all of a sudden going to become effective but he represents a more reliable and consistent selection in terms of they'all be more aware of what they're going to get out of him and he may suit certain plans they can attempt to execute.

 

[ImpatientLime]

building pressure is actually a thing though see steve o'keefe who takes poles by doing that

yeah of course, but liam dawson doesn't.

it's a polite way of saying he's ****.