Why do England struggle to produce undisputedly great players?

[Zinzan]

You can't argue with science.

 

[Jono]

To get back to the original question, I'd say it is partly a cultural thing. In other countries players have to fight hard every step of the way just to scrape a living out of the game, the alternative to *not* making it at cricket can be pretty desperate. So there's not that same drive. This is exacerbated by it being a posh boys club in England, with the ECB rejuvenating this spirit of utter scumbaggery with their **** job of Durham, there has always been politics and ****ing over of northerners which has somewhat diminished the careers of guys like Trueman and Boycott. Essentially to become a great I think you need a bit of that grit and steel, that hunger to keep working harder and harder even when you're near the top. While the old boy network excels at providing high class facilities and technically sound players, you need that bit extra something to be great. An over my dead body stubbornness, never being satisfied and striving for more.

I think the lack of class in Australia and their drive to not just be the best but to dominate is what would separate them from England in terms of producing great cricketers. Australia is much more straight-talking and less political too. England in the past couple of decades have generally been satisfied whenever they win a series or reach number 1. That sort of thing filters through to players.

Interesting post Scaly. I won't get into the north vs. south aspects etc., but just your general point regarding "drive" and "desperateness" is a fascinating concept from a cultural point of view.

The only thing I'd say is that from other country examples, arguably it is easier to make it as a pro cricketer in India now than 20-30 years ago in that there is the IPL and more domestic opportunities, whereas it was international or bust before. I want to stress that I don't mean it is easyto make it, but it is easier with more avenues of income. I guess the counter to that is the odds of making it have shifted with population growth though, whereby there is greater competition. But if you take it that the lives of Indian cricketers are better than earlier, and you don't need to be as excellent as you previously needed to be to make money, then the "desperateness" argument doesn't necessarily work if you believe India are producing more greats than they used to.

 

[Burgey]

That's right Zinzan, you can't argue with science. That's why Australia has produced the most ATG players. Let's look at things scientifically:

- Loads of natural sunlight in a warm climate which encourages outdoor activity instead of sitting on your increasingly fat arse watching television which you still have to pay a ****ing licence fee for, gaming all day long or listening to Oasis;
- A continent to ourselves, so there's lots of space for real sized cricket grounds instead of postage stamps like they have in most other countries. You'd see idiots like Flintoff hit a six 10 rows back in England which would have been caught 20 yards in at the SCG, let alone the MCG;
- Good quality red and white meat in abundance, and a population not afraid to eat it and wealthy enough to make the most of it without the squalor of Dickensian era England or indeed the modern subcontinent, particularly Chennai;
- Fantastic fresh fruits and veggies. I mean, I had what passed for a fruit salad in London one time - a sorry arsed piece of pale rock melon, shoddy strawberries, a slice each of mealy apple and flowery pear. The fruit, like the people, is sun-deprived;
- Unique flora and fauna, not this crap which other test playing nations share between them. This makes Australian players appreciate their environment more, be prouder of it than anywhere else and therefore play harder.

These are the facts. There is no denying them.

 

[Daemon]

That's right Zinzan, you can't argue with science. That's why Australia has produced the most ATG players. Let's look at things scientifically:

- Loads of natural sunlight in a warm climate which encourages outdoor activity instead of sitting on your increasingly fat arse watching television which you still have to pay a ****ing licence fee for, gaming all day long or listening to Oasis;
- A continent to ourselves, so there's lots of space for real sized cricket grounds instead of postage stamps like they have in most other countries. You'd see idiots like Flintoff hit a six 10 rows back in England which would have been caught 20 yards in at the SCG, let alone the MCG;
- Good quality red and white meat in abundance, and a population not afraid to eat it and wealthy enough to make the most of it without the squalor of Dickensian era England or indeed the modern subcontinent, particularly Chennai;
- Fantastic fresh fruits and veggies. I mean, I had what passed for a fruit salad in London one time - a sorry arsed piece of pale rock melon, shoddy strawberries, a slice each of mealy apple and flowery pear. The fruit, like the people, is sun-deprived;
- Unique flora and fauna, not this crap which other test playing nations share between them. This makes Australian players appreciate their environment more, be prouder of it than anywhere else and therefore play harder.

These are the facts. There is no denying them.

Absolutely. Finally this thread is going in the right direction.

Why are NZ not a good team though? They do share many of the same characteristics as Australia, though I suppose it's not as warm and sunny there.

 

[Jono]

That's right Zinzan, you can't argue with science. That's why Australia has produced the most ATG players. Let's look at things scientifically:

- Loads of natural sunlight in a warm climate which encourages outdoor activity instead of sitting on your increasingly fat arse watching television which you still have to pay a ****ing licence fee for, gaming all day long or listening to Oasis;
- A continent to ourselves, so there's lots of space for real sized cricket grounds instead of postage stamps like they have in most other countries. You'd see idiots like Flintoff hit a six 10 rows back in England which would have been caught 20 yards in at the SCG, let alone the MCG;
- Good quality red and white meat in abundance, and a population not afraid to eat it and wealthy enough to make the most of it without the squalor of Dickensian era England or indeed the modern subcontinent, particularly Chennai;
- Fantastic fresh fruits and veggies. I mean, I had what passed for a fruit salad in London one time - a sorry arsed piece of pale rock melon, shoddy strawberries, a slice each of mealy apple and flowery pear. The fruit, like the people, is sun-deprived;
- Unique flora and fauna, not this crap which other test playing nations share between them. This makes Australian players appreciate their environment more, be prouder of it than anywhere else and therefore play harder.

These are the facts. There is no denying them.

Being used to good quality meat was the downfall of Kane Williamson tbf. His stomach was weak and he wilted.

 

[Burgey]

I'm only going to stick with scientific things which are undeniably relevant, ok?

Absolutely. Finally this thread is going in the right direction.

Why are NZ not a good team though? They do share many of the same characteristics as Australia, though I suppose it's not as warm and sunny there.

They're plucky and they punch above their weight, but they've got a few things going against them (except Smudge, of course, who's a gun). These are:

- Although well balanced because they have chips on both shoulders from their completely justifiable sense of inferiority, most NZ players are weighed down by it, which is why they always look so depressed and weather beaten;
- It rains a lot more in NZ than here, and even when it doesn't the sheep get in the way of play;
- When they win their standard two games in three years they start to get excited and their heads get caught up in the (long white) clouds. That's actually where the Maori got the traditional name for the country from;
- They eat too much lamb instead of beef. I'm not one to criticise lamb normally, because it's wonderful, but there needs to be balance;
- They are a people who are naturally humble, and in fairness they have much to be humble about. It's an endearing quality, but being so geographically adjacent to an entire continent of super sportsmen means it leads to insecurity and lack of performance. I mean, surely the dumbest bookmaker on earth was the one who (allegedly) paid Chris Cairns to throw a match;
- Their national footwear is the gum boot, because it's so wet under foot over there. That means their feet and legs aren't used to running on solid ground, so when they play cricket on proper surfaces, they struggle.
- NZ is very hilly. As a result, New Zealanders grow up with one leg shorter than the other, so their heads are always level despite standing on such steep slopes. It makes sense from an evolutionary point of view, but it causes problems when they have to play cricket on flat surfaces, because half the team will be leaning one way, and half the other.

Being used to good quality meat was the downfall of Kane Williamson tbf. His stomach was weak and he wilted.

This is plainly untrue, as it has been scientifically proven in my earlier post that all the good meat from India (such as it is) gets exported because everyone there is a vegetarian.

 

[honestbharani]

That's right Zinzan, you can't argue with science. That's why Australia has produced the most ATG players. Let's look at things scientifically:

- Loads of natural sunlight in a warm climate which encourages outdoor activity instead of sitting on your increasingly fat arse watching television which you still have to pay a ****ing licence fee for, gaming all day long or listening to Oasis;
- A continent to ourselves, so there's lots of space for real sized cricket grounds instead of postage stamps like they have in most other countries. You'd see idiots like Flintoff hit a six 10 rows back in England which would have been caught 20 yards in at the SCG, let alone the MCG;
- Good quality red and white meat in abundance, and a population not afraid to eat it and wealthy enough to make the most of it without the squalor of Dickensian era England or indeed the modern subcontinent, particularly Chennai;
- Fantastic fresh fruits and veggies. I mean, I had what passed for a fruit salad in London one time - a sorry arsed piece of pale rock melon, shoddy strawberries, a slice each of mealy apple and flowery pear. The fruit, like the people, is sun-deprived;
- Unique flora and fauna, not this crap which other test playing nations share between them. This makes Australian players appreciate their environment more, be prouder of it than anywhere else and therefore play harder.

These are the facts. There is no denying them.

Is it also the reason Australia has contributed **** all to the world otherwise?

 

[Jono]

Is it also the reason Australia has contributed **** all to the world otherwise?

 

[Burgey]

Is it also the reason Australia has contributed **** all to the world otherwise?

Sadly, a group of five CSIRO scientists invented wifi, which means ****wits like you can post **** like that from almost anywhere in the world, even Chennai.

Those same five genii are currently working on a portable sense of humour which they're hoping to export your way soon. **** knows, you need it.

Among Australia's other contributions to the world, which have largely come about due to the natural advantages this great island continent enjoys as per my post which you kindly quoted, are:

The notepad - I don't mean the cheap, portable computers you lot churn out over there at forty bucks a pop using underpaid child labour, I mean the note pad people write on.
The self-propelled stump-jump plough
The surf ski
The tank
Allan Border
The Rotary Hoe
The Dethridge Wheel
Zinc Cream - copied by pretender cricket nations ever since
The Electronic Pacemaker (subsequently installed extensively into Indian cricketers in an attempt to make up for their own cardiac failings). It's a little known fact the pacemaker was originally modelled on Allan Border's ticker, but when placed into the chest cavity of normal human beings not named Peter Siddle, it caused their hearts to explode. Thereafter, a scaled down model went into widespread production.
The coupe utility
Penicillin - the Poms claim this, but everyone knows it was Florey who found the medicinal use for it. Otherwise, we'd all just sit around looking at it saying "What's this fungus?"
Splayds
The orbital internal combustion engine
Plastic glasses lenses.
Ricky Ponting
The Hills Hoist
Solar hot water. Not real helpful in England, but handy elsewhere
Power boards. Seriously, top five inventions of the 20th century. Up there with the powered golf cart.
Super soppers - it's a scientific fact that before this Australian invention, no cricket had ever been played in England or New Zealand.
Inflatable escape slides, invented primarily to allow people to escape from your company at dinner parties.
The black box flight recorder
The bionic ear, which usefully has an "off" switch so umpires can avoid listening to Indian cricketers appeal every ball
Dual flush toilets (later adapted to triple flush, with "half", "full" and "honestbharani" levels of faecal flushing power)
Sonar - often used on submarines, but also to try and locate the Indian cricket supporter's sense of humour, apparently lost at the bottom of the Marianas Trench (not the Indy rock band, the actual Marianas Trench).
Frozen Embryo Babies.
Ryan Harris
Ryan Harris' artifical knees
The baby safety capsule - plainly developed too late to prevent your closed head injury as a youngster
The polymer bank note - favoured by illegal Indian bookmakers the world over
The Frazier Lens - has enormous depth of field and can therefore spot a long running sitcom from miles away
Jindalee Radar System
The electric drill
Google Maps
Richie Benaud
Spray-on skin for burns victims
The ultrasound scanner
The boomerang
Pre-paid postage
The fridge
Powered flight
The wine cask (aka the Mooree Handbag)
Cervical Cancer Vaccine
A blood test to prevent stillbirth (there's such a good line there at your expense, but I won't go there)
The digital sampler (yep, we're to blame for techno. Sorry,everyone)
Anti-flu vaccines
Stop shot glass.

And these are just the inventions, not the greats from the field of artistic endeavour who have blazed a trail across the world, leaving the rest of the cricket playing nations in their wake. Our contributions are legion, for they are many. You just need to accept these things mate. It's ok. Really. It is.

 

[cnerd123]

Sadly, a group of five CSIRO scientists invented wifi, which means ****wits like you can post **** like that from almost anywhere in the world, even Chennai.

Those same five genii are currently working on a portable sense of humour which they're hoping to export your way soon. **** knows, you need it.

Among Australia's other contributions to the world, which have largely come about due to the natural advantages this great island continent enjoys as per my post which you kindly quoted, are:

The notepad
The stump-jump plough
The surf ski
The tank
Allan Border
The Rotary Hoe
The Dethridge Wheel
Zinc Cream - copied by pretender cricket nations ever since
The Electronic Pacemaker (subsequently installed extensively into Indian cricketers in an attempt to make up for their own cardiac failings). It's a little known fact the pacemaker was originally modelled on Allan Border's ticker, but when placed into the chest cavity of normal human beings not named Peter Siddle, it caused their hearts to explode. Thereafter, a scaled down model went into widespread production.
The coupe utility
Penicillin - the Poms claim this, but everyone knows it was Florey who found the medicinal use for it. Otherwise, we'd all just sit around looking at it saying "What's this fungus?"
Splayds
The orbital internal combustion engine
Plastic glasses lenses.
Ricky Ponting
The Hills Hoist
Solar hot water. Not real helpful in England, but handy elsewhere
Power boards. Seriously, top five inventions of the 20th century. Up there with the powered golf cart.
Super soppers - it's a scientific fact that before this Australian invention, no cricket had ever been played in England or New Zealand.
Inflatable escape slides, invented primarily to allow people to escape from your company at dinner parties.
The black box flight recorder
The bionic ear, which usefully has an "off" switch so umpires can avoid listening to Indian cricketers appeal every ball
Dual flush toilets (later adapted to triple flush, with "half", "full" and "honestbharani" levels of faecal flushing power)
Sonar - often used on submarines, but also to try and locate the Indian cricket supporter's sense of humour, apparently lost at the bottom of the Marianas Trench (not the Indy rock band, the actual Marianas Trench).
Frozen Embryo Babies.
Ryan Harris
The baby safety capsule - plainly developed too late to prevent your closed head injury as a youngster
The polymer bank note - favoured by illegal Indian bookmakers the world over
The Frazier Lens - has enormous depth of field and can therefore spot a long running sitcom from miles away
Jindalee Radar System
The electric drill
Google Maps
Richie Benaud
Spray-on skin for burns victims
The ultrasound scanner
The boomerang
Pre-paid postage
The fridge
Powered flight
The wine cask (aka the Mooree Handbag)
Cervical Cancer Vaccine
A blood test to prevent stillbirth (there's such a good line there at your expense, but I won't go there)
The digital sampler (yep, we're to blame for techno. Sorry,everyone)
Anti-flu vaccines
Stop shot glass.

And these are just the inventions, not the greats from the field of artistic endeavour who have blazed a trail across the world, leaving the rest of the cricket playing nations in their wake. Our contributions are legion, for they are many. You just need to accept these things mate. It's ok. Really. It is.

You have the time to dig all this up and yet are outraged at a podcast thats 1 hour and 12 minutes long

 

[Burgey]

I'm sorry, but Bangladesh supporters really aren't qualified to post in threads discussing ATG players

 

[cnerd123]

I'm sorry, but Bangladesh supporters really aren't qualified to post in threads discussing ATG players

Shakib's a better spin bowling allrounder than Australia have ever produced tbh

 

[Burgey]

Mate, Greg Matthews was a better spin bowling all rounder than Shakib, let alone Richie Benaud or Allan Border.

 

[cnerd123]

Mate, Greg Matthews was a better spin bowling all rounder than Shakib, let alone Richie Benaud or Allan Border.

You've named one hack, one specialist captain, and a man not even good enough to get into his own country's ATG XI.

Shakib walks into his country's ATG XI, as well as England's and New Zealand's.

He'd walk into Australia's XI too if he was a big enough ****.

 

[Burgey]

Look, I don't mind taking the piss on here but since I joined CW in 2006, that's in the top two worst posts I've read.

 

[Burgey]

I read one of weldone's posts once. That was the other.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Sadly, a group of five CSIRO scientists invented wifi, which means ****wits like you can post **** like that from almost anywhere in the world, even Chennai.

Those same five genii are currently working on a portable sense of humour which they're hoping to export your way soon. **** knows, you need it.

Among Australia's other contributions to the world, which have largely come about due to the natural advantages this great island continent enjoys as per my post which you kindly quoted, are:

The notepad - I don't mean the cheap, portable computers you lot churn out over there at forty bucks a pop using underpaid child labour, I mean the note pad people write on.
The self-propelled stump-jump plough
The surf ski
The tank
Allan Border
The Rotary Hoe
The Dethridge Wheel
Zinc Cream - copied by pretender cricket nations ever since
The Electronic Pacemaker (subsequently installed extensively into Indian cricketers in an attempt to make up for their own cardiac failings). It's a little known fact the pacemaker was originally modelled on Allan Border's ticker, but when placed into the chest cavity of normal human beings not named Peter Siddle, it caused their hearts to explode. Thereafter, a scaled down model went into widespread production.
The coupe utility
Penicillin - the Poms claim this, but everyone knows it was Florey who found the medicinal use for it. Otherwise, we'd all just sit around looking at it saying "What's this fungus?"
Splayds
The orbital internal combustion engine
Plastic glasses lenses.
Ricky Ponting
The Hills Hoist
Solar hot water. Not real helpful in England, but handy elsewhere
Power boards. Seriously, top five inventions of the 20th century. Up there with the powered golf cart.
Super soppers - it's a scientific fact that before this Australian invention, no cricket had ever been played in England or New Zealand.
Inflatable escape slides, invented primarily to allow people to escape from your company at dinner parties.
The black box flight recorder
The bionic ear, which usefully has an "off" switch so umpires can avoid listening to Indian cricketers appeal every ball
Dual flush toilets (later adapted to triple flush, with "half", "full" and "honestbharani" levels of faecal flushing power)
Sonar - often used on submarines, but also to try and locate the Indian cricket supporter's sense of humour, apparently lost at the bottom of the Marianas Trench (not the Indy rock band, the actual Marianas Trench).
Frozen Embryo Babies.
Ryan Harris
Ryan Harris' artifical knees
The baby safety capsule - plainly developed too late to prevent your closed head injury as a youngster
The polymer bank note - favoured by illegal Indian bookmakers the world over
The Frazier Lens - has enormous depth of field and can therefore spot a long running sitcom from miles away
Jindalee Radar System
The electric drill
Google Maps
Richie Benaud
Spray-on skin for burns victims
The ultrasound scanner
The boomerang
Pre-paid postage
The fridge
Powered flight
The wine cask (aka the Mooree Handbag)
Cervical Cancer Vaccine
A blood test to prevent stillbirth (there's such a good line there at your expense, but I won't go there)
The digital sampler (yep, we're to blame for techno. Sorry,everyone)
Anti-flu vaccines
Stop shot glass.

And these are just the inventions, not the greats from the field of artistic endeavour who have blazed a trail across the world, leaving the rest of the cricket playing nations in their wake. Our contributions are legion, for they are many. You just need to accept these things mate. It's ok. Really. It is.

Evidence?

 

[Red]

Burgey on fire in here. It's like he just scored three times in a row on NBA Jam on the Nintendo.

 

[Burgey]

Greg Matthews would captain Bangladesh's AT XI if he had the misfortune to have played for them. Benaud scored as many test tons as Al Hasan has, but didn't score them against a half arsed Pakistan attack, against NZ on a deck so flat Guptill was MOTM and the other against the hapless water buffalo of Zimbabwe. The TOTAB is the TOTAB. He spun an ATG side out in Sydney in the late 80s, imagine what he'd do against Bangladesh. He'd take 10 for 3 (leg byes wrongly attributed to the batsman), score 401 not out off 135 balls then take another ten for in the second dig. Spare me this Shakib Al Nobody rubbish.

 

[Red]

Shakib might make Australia's 5th AT XI if he was lucky.