Why do England struggle to produce undisputedly great players?

[CapeTown Guy]

So if Anderson was the second best seamer in the world, that kind of blows the argument he was never nearly one of the worlds best out of the water doesn't it?

But he wasn't close to the guy who was the best. Therefore...

 

[91Jmay]

That isn't what the phrase 'one of' means

 

[CapeTown Guy]

That isn't what the phrase 'one of' means

I never said he isn't 'one of' the best in the world. My stance is that he has never been close to being the actual best, Steyn's record has always been vastly superior.

 

[Furball]

So Anderson had roughly one or two peak seasons where he was comparable with Steyn?

Steyn: All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Anderson: All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Don't mean to derail the thread, but frankly, only an Englishman would regard Anderson higher.

I suggest you go and get your eyes tested, or go back to school and learn how to read.

 

[honestbharani]

Believe it or not, he is probably more angry that you called him an Englishman than you calling him a biased Anderson fan...

 

[marc71178]

So Anderson had roughly one or two peak seasons where he was comparable with Steyn?

Steyn: All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Anderson: All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Don't mean to derail the thread, but frankly, only an Englishman would regard Anderson higher.

Nobody has said that though, but what they have said, which is perfectly true, is that he has been close to the best in the world, something Ntini can never come anywhere near, rendering your initial claim/post as total hogwash.

 

[Adders]

****ing ridiculous discussion and a nonsense phrase to say Jimmy "was never even close to being the best in the world"

Not one person here would say that over their careers Steyn hasn't been a considerably better bowler, he's an ATG FFS and for the umpteenth time us "Englishmen" are not ranking Jimmy in that league. But he has been consistently the second best quick in the world for the last 5 to 6 years, so that by definition means he is "close" to being the best.

You can say he was never the best.......I'd buy that. But to say "never even close to being the best in the world" is just deliberately dismissive and misleading. If you are No 2 out of the hundreds of quick bowlers around the world who play the game then I'm pretty sure that makes you close to being No 1.

 

[akilana]

Nobody has said that though, but what they have said, which is perfectly true, is that he has been close to the best in the world, something Ntini can never come anywhere near, rendering your initial claim/post as total hogwash.

It is like saying Ntini was close to the best between 2005-2006. Anderson was close to Steyn level is total nonsense.

 

[akilana]

Ntini was arguably close to the best between 2005-2006 the way Anderson was close to the best. In Anderson's case there was less competition.

Anderson and Ntini were similar bowlers with good record at home and ordinry record away from it.

 

[Coronis]

****ing ridiculous discussion and a nonsense phrase to say Jimmy "was never even close to being the best in the world"

Not one person here would say that over their careers Steyn hasn't been a considerably better bowler, he's an ATG FFS and for the umpteenth time us "Englishmen" are not ranking Jimmy in that league. But he has been consistently the second best quick in the world for the last 5 to 6 years, so that by definition means he is "close" to being the best.

You can say he was never the best.......I'd buy that. But to say "never even close to being the best in the world" is just deliberately dismissive and misleading. If you are No 2 out of the hundreds of quick bowlers around the world who play the game then I'm pretty sure that makes you close to being No 1.

Was Wally Hammond close to being the best batsman in the 30's?

 

[Zinzan]

If we're talking the last 40 years or so, Botham is a bonafide ATG.

Closely behind you have KP, who wasn't quite an ATG, but without doubt one of the greats of his era.

 

[Shri]

Anderson seems forgettable because other fast bowlers have kept doing crazy things over his best years as a bowler.

Season 2011/12 - Anderson - 18 wickets @ 24.72

- Vernon Philander (51 wickets @ 14.15)
- Peter Siddle (39 wickets at 24.56)
- Ben Hilfenhaus(!) (37 wickets @ 18.18)

Season 2012 - Anderson - 18 @ 33.77

- Kemar Roach 20 @ 24.65
- Stuart Broad 25 @ 29.64

Season 2012/13 - Anderson 22 @ 33.31

- Dale Steyn 45 @ 17.28
- Vernon Philander 26 @ 19.96

Season 2013 - Anderson - 31 @ 25.25

- Ryan Harris - 24 @ 19.58
- Stuart Broad - 34 @ 23.38

Season 2013/14 - Anderson - 14 @ 43.92

- Mitchell Johnson - 59 @ 15.23
- Trent Boult - 33 @ 22.84
- Ryan Harris - 32 @ 23.21
- Tim Southee 29 @ 20.27

Season 2014 - Anderson - 37 @ 20.89

- Roach 26 @ 20.30
- Steyn 21 @ 14.80
- Morkel - 15 @16.40

Season 2014/15 - Anderson - None

- Morkel 13 @ 20.61
- Steyn 13 @ 22.15

Season 2015 - Anderson - 33 @ 25.42

- Broad - 44 @ 24.75
- Hazlewood - 28 @ 18.50

Season 2015/16 - Anderson - 20 @ 25.20

- Broad - 25 @ 22.48
- Rabada - 24 @ 24.70
- Pattinson 19 @ 23.68

Season 2016 - Anderson - 30 @ 15.26

- Woakes 34 @ 17.20
- Starc - 24 @ 15.16
- Wagner - 20 @ 16.90

I think we can see a pattern here. In his best years, he is as good as the rest without really being head and shoulders ahead but in his average years, there are many who have clearly outperformed him. Now those stats are probably arbitrary but it gives us a guideline that can be explored further.

 

[Burgey]

Those stats also tend to show the 2010s really haven't been the bat dominated deacde the 2000s were.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Was Wally Hammond close to being the best batsman in the 30's?

Yeah this is the point and the best illustration of what I'm trying to say although clearly a far more extreme example.

 

[Furball]

How come you missed 2010 and 2010/11 from your analysis?

Comparing seasons like that is daft anyway. 2011/12 for example for Anderson was 5 Tests in Asia, which is a completely different prospect as a seamer to a home summer for Steyn or Hilfenhaus.

 

[Furball]

How many visiting quicks have had the sort of series Anderson had in Australia in 2010/11?
How many quicks have been cited by an opposition captain as the difference in a series win in India?
How many quicks have gone to the UAE and produced the figures Anderson managed to in 2015?

Amongst his contemporaries, the answer is nobody.

 

[Burgey]

There haven't been too many who've produced the sort of stats he had here in 2006/2007 either

 

[Zinzan]

Anderson seems forgettable because other fast bowlers have kept doing crazy things over his best years as a bowler.

Season 2011/12 - Anderson - 18 wickets @ 24.72

- Vernon Philander (51 wickets @ 14.15)
- Peter Siddle (39 wickets at 24.56)
- Ben Hilfenhaus(!) (37 wickets @ 18.18)

Season 2012 - Anderson - 18 @ 33.77

- Kemar Roach 20 @ 24.65
- Stuart Broad 25 @ 29.64

Season 2012/13 - Anderson 22 @ 33.31

- Dale Steyn 45 @ 17.28
- Vernon Philander 26 @ 19.96

Season 2013 - Anderson - 31 @ 25.25

- Ryan Harris - 24 @ 19.58
- Stuart Broad - 34 @ 23.38

Season 2013/14 - Anderson - 14 @ 43.92

- Mitchell Johnson - 59 @ 15.23
- Trent Boult - 33 @ 22.84
- Ryan Harris - 32 @ 23.21
- Tim Southee 29 @ 20.27

Season 2014 - Anderson - 37 @ 20.89

- Roach 26 @ 20.30
- Steyn 21 @ 14.80
- Morkel - 15 @16.40

Season 2014/15 - Anderson - None

- Morkel 13 @ 20.61
- Steyn 13 @ 22.15

Season 2015 - Anderson - 33 @ 25.42

- Broad - 44 @ 24.75
- Hazlewood - 28 @ 18.50

Season 2015/16 - Anderson - 20 @ 25.20

- Broad - 25 @ 22.48
- Rabada - 24 @ 24.70
- Pattinson 19 @ 23.68

Season 2016 - Anderson - 30 @ 15.26

- Woakes 34 @ 17.20
- Starc - 24 @ 15.16
- Wagner - 20 @ 16.90

I think we can see a pattern here. In his best years, he is as good as the rest without really being head and shoulders ahead but in his average years, there are many who have clearly outperformed him. Now those stats are probably arbitrary but it gives us a guideline that can be explored further.

Interesting way to look at it... hard to disagree with that conclusion.

To be fair on Anderson, he's had a great 2016 though.

 

[Zinzan]

How many visiting quicks have had the sort of series Anderson had in Australia in 2010/11?
How many quicks have been cited by an opposition captain as the difference in a series win in India?
How many quicks have gone to the UAE and produced the figures Anderson managed to in 2015?

Amongst his contemporaries, the answer is nobody.

They're all very specific questions tbf

 

[Burgey]

I think the answer to the thread title question is obvious. Just as India doesn't produce fast bowlers because they're all vegetarians, and the few who aren't eat beef from Brahman cattle which are very thin and not as beefy as other beef around the world,. so in England their players aren't fit enough to be ATGs because they eat Yorkshire Pudding, baked beans and fish and chips all the time whilst living in a crap, sunless environment which means their eyes have evolved such that when it is sunny, they can't cope with it and are unable to focus on the ball.