StephenZA
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I will be shocked if the Boks win this one...
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Official Rugby Thread
- Thread starter KennyD
- Start date
StephenZA
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Boks can`t decide how to play... run, bash or kick, huge existential crisis in Bok rugby right now. ... and they not particularly good at anything atm. And a coach who does actually not have a game plan or know what he is doing.
We shall see, but I don`t think its going to be a great game... it will be who makes the fewest errors in a game of ordinary rugby.
We shall see, but I don`t think its going to be a great game... it will be who makes the fewest errors in a game of ordinary rugby.
ripper868
International Coach
Wallabies can`t decide how to play... run, bash or kick, huge existential crisis in Aussie rugby right now. ... and they not particularly good at anything atm. And a coach who does actually not have a game plan or know what he is doing.
Agree, think the team that kicks goals their goals and holds the ball wins.
Agree, think the team that kicks goals their goals and holds the ball wins.
StephenZA
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Excellent game between All Black`s and Pumas... pity the pumas ran out of legs, NZ bench strength ridiculous.
I can now without contradiction say that Springboks suck more than the Wallabies ...
and I cant see it changing until the SA rugby administration removes their head from their arse.
I can now without contradiction say that Springboks suck more than the Wallabies ...
and I cant see it changing until the SA rugby administration removes their head from their arse.
social
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Well the ARU are without doubt the worst administrators of any major sport in Australia so it is a race to the bottomExcellent game between All Black`s and Pumas... pity the pumas ran out of legs, NZ bench strength ridiculous.
I can now without contradiction say that Springboks suck more than the Wallabies ...
At least rugby in SA still attracts many of the country's elite athletes whilst the Wallabies are basically picked from a handful of private schools. It has been that way forever and the ARU is literally making no attempt to broaden the base
In fact, if anything, they are restricting it further
Here is an interesting take on it from Brett Papworth
Brett Papworth: As you sow, so shall you reap | Rugby News
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Zinzan
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So what's the excuse for your league team then?
social
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Only as good as your last match
Okay Zinzan. Australia and South Africa just played a Test, so now seems like an appropriate time to talk about rugby history.
Ranking the Lions Sides Following World War II
1. 1974 Lions
The 1974 Lions are number one because they went undefeated and only drew one Test. Their forwards performed much better in '74 than they did in '71. The sights of the Lions' scrum demolishing the Springboks is a sight to behold.
2. 1971 Lions
In all honesty, the 1971 Lions probably has the best backline ever. But what gets missed is that it was mostly the boot of Barry John that won them the series. They weren't like the 1984 Wallabies, or anything, and the 1970s weren't the best period for *** ******* rugby.
3. 1956 Lions
The deeds of the 1956 Lions figure prominently when selecting an all-time XV. Bryn Meredith's famous supporting try, and Cliff Morgan's dazzling five-eighth play. They were 2-1 up in the series, but let it slip.
4. 1959 Lions
The 1959 Lions only lost because *** ******* had Don "The Boot" Clarke. Even most New Zealanders acknowledge the Lions deserved to win that Test where Clarke scored the winning try. The best Lions side never to win a series. They were backline innovators. Tony O'Reilly's amount of tries are incredible!
5. 2001 Lions
This Lions side let one get away. They demolished Australia in the first Test - Robinson burning off Latham, O'Driscoll cutting past Larkham and then burning off Burke. Quinell, Hill, Johnson, Wood... it was a powerful side. They dominated the first half of the second Test, didn't put the points on the board, and then got destroyed. Richard Hill's absence in the third Test hurt them a lot!
6. 1950 Lions
Jack Kyle unveils himself as arguably the best five-eighth ever with the most innovative backline approach since in rugby!
7. 1977 Lions
They should have tied the series, but that kick got charged down. I rate Barry John higher than Phil Bennett because Bennett couldn't get it gone in this series.
8. 1980 Lions v South Africa
Joggie Jansen! Joggie Jansen! Joggie Jansen! That tackle that turned the series. This was a great Lions side that won all their non-Test matches, but they came up against a powerful Springbok side.
9. 2009 Lions
An underrated Lions series. I really enjoyed this. The Lions could have won the first Test, should have won the second Test, and did win the third Test. The Lions played with more ambition and adventure than the Boks. Peter de Villiers was a classic in this series after Schalk Burger infringed in the first Test - "Why don't we all buy little tutus?"
Ronan O'Gara essentially cost the Lions the second Test with some bad kicks, a missed tackle, and giving away the final penalty that cost them the Test. It was worse than Campese in 1989.
10. 1997 Lions
A super medicore series. The highlights were Matt Dawson fooling van der Westhuisen with a dummy, Scott Gibbs bouncing off Os du Randt, and Guscott's drop-goal to win it... But yeah, not much of a series. The Springboks should have won 3-0.
11. 1993 Lions
The one that got away. Frank Bunce scores a try with two sets of hands on the ball, and Grant Fox kicks the winning penalty off a phantom penalty, which ranks as perhaps the worst unpiring decision of all time. The Lions simply weren't prepared for the third and final Test though. They should have won this series.
10. 1989 Lions
This wasn't a great Australian side, and yet they destroyed the Lions in the first Test by not doing anything special. The second Test unveiled how soft the Aussie forwards were. Scott Gourley was the only Aussie to stand up to the Lions bullying tactics. The third Test is famous for Campo's corner. I'm not certain Campo cost them the series, as the Lions had it all over the Aussie forwards. To his credit, Bob Dwyer culled a heck of a lot of players after this series who didn't have the toughness to stand up to the Lions. A mediocre series.
12. 2013 Lions
A really terrible series. Neither side played too well. Leigh Halfpenny's kicking was excellent, and was his play for fullback in the third Test. I was expecting another dull, boring, third Test. But the Lions demolished the Aussie scrum. A terrible series!
14. 1983 Lions
Lost 0-3, with Dave Loveridge cementing his spot as the greatest halfback his country ever produced.
15. 2005 Lions
Perhaps the most disappointing series, especially given the talent the Lions had. The Lions were way overstaffed, and took too many players on tour. Everything was overshadowed by O'Driscoll getting head-hunted. A horrible series. Dan Carter's five-eighth play may have been the best there's ever been in this series. Honestly, there's night and day between the Dan Carter of 2005-2007 to the Dan Carter of 2011-2015.
16. 1966 Lions
Got killed by *** ******* when they had their greatest ever forward pack - Whineray, McLeod, Gray, Meads, Meads, Tremain, Nathan, Lochore. I don't know if that was the exact pack, but they're the eight names I think of when the 60s forward pack is discussed.
17. 1962 Lions
Simply got killed by the might of SA.
Ranking the Lions Sides Following World War II
1. 1974 Lions
The 1974 Lions are number one because they went undefeated and only drew one Test. Their forwards performed much better in '74 than they did in '71. The sights of the Lions' scrum demolishing the Springboks is a sight to behold.
2. 1971 Lions
In all honesty, the 1971 Lions probably has the best backline ever. But what gets missed is that it was mostly the boot of Barry John that won them the series. They weren't like the 1984 Wallabies, or anything, and the 1970s weren't the best period for *** ******* rugby.
3. 1956 Lions
The deeds of the 1956 Lions figure prominently when selecting an all-time XV. Bryn Meredith's famous supporting try, and Cliff Morgan's dazzling five-eighth play. They were 2-1 up in the series, but let it slip.
4. 1959 Lions
The 1959 Lions only lost because *** ******* had Don "The Boot" Clarke. Even most New Zealanders acknowledge the Lions deserved to win that Test where Clarke scored the winning try. The best Lions side never to win a series. They were backline innovators. Tony O'Reilly's amount of tries are incredible!
5. 2001 Lions
This Lions side let one get away. They demolished Australia in the first Test - Robinson burning off Latham, O'Driscoll cutting past Larkham and then burning off Burke. Quinell, Hill, Johnson, Wood... it was a powerful side. They dominated the first half of the second Test, didn't put the points on the board, and then got destroyed. Richard Hill's absence in the third Test hurt them a lot!
6. 1950 Lions
Jack Kyle unveils himself as arguably the best five-eighth ever with the most innovative backline approach since in rugby!
7. 1977 Lions
They should have tied the series, but that kick got charged down. I rate Barry John higher than Phil Bennett because Bennett couldn't get it gone in this series.
8. 1980 Lions v South Africa
Joggie Jansen! Joggie Jansen! Joggie Jansen! That tackle that turned the series. This was a great Lions side that won all their non-Test matches, but they came up against a powerful Springbok side.
9. 2009 Lions
An underrated Lions series. I really enjoyed this. The Lions could have won the first Test, should have won the second Test, and did win the third Test. The Lions played with more ambition and adventure than the Boks. Peter de Villiers was a classic in this series after Schalk Burger infringed in the first Test - "Why don't we all buy little tutus?"
Ronan O'Gara essentially cost the Lions the second Test with some bad kicks, a missed tackle, and giving away the final penalty that cost them the Test. It was worse than Campese in 1989.
10. 1997 Lions
A super medicore series. The highlights were Matt Dawson fooling van der Westhuisen with a dummy, Scott Gibbs bouncing off Os du Randt, and Guscott's drop-goal to win it... But yeah, not much of a series. The Springboks should have won 3-0.
11. 1993 Lions
The one that got away. Frank Bunce scores a try with two sets of hands on the ball, and Grant Fox kicks the winning penalty off a phantom penalty, which ranks as perhaps the worst unpiring decision of all time. The Lions simply weren't prepared for the third and final Test though. They should have won this series.
10. 1989 Lions
This wasn't a great Australian side, and yet they destroyed the Lions in the first Test by not doing anything special. The second Test unveiled how soft the Aussie forwards were. Scott Gourley was the only Aussie to stand up to the Lions bullying tactics. The third Test is famous for Campo's corner. I'm not certain Campo cost them the series, as the Lions had it all over the Aussie forwards. To his credit, Bob Dwyer culled a heck of a lot of players after this series who didn't have the toughness to stand up to the Lions. A mediocre series.
12. 2013 Lions
A really terrible series. Neither side played too well. Leigh Halfpenny's kicking was excellent, and was his play for fullback in the third Test. I was expecting another dull, boring, third Test. But the Lions demolished the Aussie scrum. A terrible series!
14. 1983 Lions
Lost 0-3, with Dave Loveridge cementing his spot as the greatest halfback his country ever produced.
15. 2005 Lions
Perhaps the most disappointing series, especially given the talent the Lions had. The Lions were way overstaffed, and took too many players on tour. Everything was overshadowed by O'Driscoll getting head-hunted. A horrible series. Dan Carter's five-eighth play may have been the best there's ever been in this series. Honestly, there's night and day between the Dan Carter of 2005-2007 to the Dan Carter of 2011-2015.
16. 1966 Lions
Got killed by *** ******* when they had their greatest ever forward pack - Whineray, McLeod, Gray, Meads, Meads, Tremain, Nathan, Lochore. I don't know if that was the exact pack, but they're the eight names I think of when the 60s forward pack is discussed.
17. 1962 Lions
Simply got killed by the might of SA.
Zinzan
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Interesting..I knew '71 would be your no.1 and rightly so... thought 2001 would be 4th or 5th, because that was a handy Aussie side and agree the 2005 mob had to be near the bottom.
BTW, you don't need permission when you can and can't discuss rugby history in here, It's a generic rugby thread & It's not like half the Test matches actually get commented on in here anyway...
BTW, you don't need permission when you can and can't discuss rugby history in here, It's a generic rugby thread & It's not like half the Test matches actually get commented on in here anyway...
The 1959 Lions hold a special place with me.
They scored four tries to none in the first Test, and yet lost 17-18, with Don Clarke kicking a then world record six penalties. The second Test was similar, but *** ******* won off a Don Clarke try. After *** ******* easily won the third Test, the whole of the country was more or less demanding that fairness dictate that the Lions win the fourth Test.
They had Ben Risman, Tony O'Reilly, Peter Jackson, Jeff Butterfield, and Dickie Jeeps... actually, I'm not certain that the 1959 side didn't have the best backline ever!
They scored four tries to none in the first Test, and yet lost 17-18, with Don Clarke kicking a then world record six penalties. The second Test was similar, but *** ******* won off a Don Clarke try. After *** ******* easily won the third Test, the whole of the country was more or less demanding that fairness dictate that the Lions win the fourth Test.
They had Ben Risman, Tony O'Reilly, Peter Jackson, Jeff Butterfield, and Dickie Jeeps... actually, I'm not certain that the 1959 side didn't have the best backline ever!
The 2001 Lions Series ranks with the 1992 Bledisloe Cup and the 1996 *** ******* Tour to South Africa, as one of the best series I have ever seen.
Australia had John Eales, George Smith, Owen Finegan, George Smith, Toutai Kefu, a still good George Gregan, Stephen Larkham (he missed the third Test), Joe Roff and Matt Burke.
Although Australia briefly held the world number one ranking in 2004, 2001 was really the last time they were the best side in the world. In late 2001, I think England overtook Australia as the best side in the world until the end of 2003.
Despite having one of their best sides ever, the 2001 Lions absolutely destroyed them in that first Test! Jason Robinson did an amazing in-and-away to burn off Chris Latham. Brian O'Driscoll scored the try of his career, by slicing past Larkham and side-stepping Burke. Rob Howley BADLY outplayed George Gregan in that first Test. George Smith, who was arguably the best player in the world at that point, was badly beaten by Richard Hill (who played openside in the first Test). Quinnell was incredible. And Keith Wood received Man of the Match, despite all these other heroics.
It was a truly awesome Lions side. They dominated Australia so badly in the first half of that second Test, but they didn't put points on the board. Nathan Gray elbowing Richard Hill, and giving him a concussion, seriously hurt the Lions. But Australia's loose-forwards in the second half of the second Test were incredible. I love the try that Owen Finegan set up for Matt Burke!
The third Test was the worst of the three, and was essentially a kick-off. Both sides committed lots of penalties - Burke kicks all his goals, Wilkinson missed a few.
StephenZA
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
The ARU are not attracting the best athletes in Aus, rugby is not a top tier sport and the association is not being run well... agreed.
Rugby in RSA on the other hand is one of the most watched sports, it is probably amongst one of the most played sports (possibly only behind football).. it attracts lot's of quality sports men from a population that is 2x greater. Has more economic international power through SANZAR than it rightly deserves..... and still can not get an international team to play in the same direction, can not get the franchises to come together and speak sensibly and find a definitive working game plan with a way forward for RSA rugby; And now we are losing our best to the overseas market largely because of money (and some politics/quota issues)and not just players, coaches as well. But because us suckers still watch the game in hope every weekend expecting a different result... SA rugby still coins it and does nothing to actually sort out the problems. Trust me as bad as Aus rugby administration is, RSA administration is far worse atm.
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Zinzan
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Indeed, rugby is huge in SA, even if soccer is considered the official 'national sport' there. stphndbsn - what would you say is bigger between cricket & rugby in SA.
And while we're at it, social - where would you rank rugby in Australia among team sports?
And while we're at it, social - where would you rank rugby in Australia among team sports?
social
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
It's definitely behind (in no particular order) rugby league, aussie rules, cricket and football in terms of popularity among viewers
If we include womens sport, netball will also be running it close soon
What's more, general participation rates dont make great reading either and you can see it is a niche sport that doesnt rank in the top 20 in Australia
The Top 20 sports played by Aussies kids and adults - Roy Morgan Research
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Here's a new exercise, Zinzan. In rugby league they have this concept - "The Immortals" - where they bestow a special status on certain players for their landmark contributions to the game of rugby league. Let's try the equivalent in rugby union with each country. There's no set number of players you need to select...
South Africa
Danie Craven
Hennie Muller
Chris Koch
Frik du Preez
Danie Gerber
I think I got this right. Danie Craven deserves to be an "Immortal" because he was a legendary player, captain, coach and administrator. van der Westhausen was probably a better exponent of the position. But in terms of being an immortal, I think Dr Craven deserves to be in there.
I nearly forgot Chris Koch. But you can't have a South African Immortals list, and have no front-row forwards in there.
*** *******
George Nepia
Colin Meads
Michael Jones
Sean Fitzpatrick
Zinzan Brooke
Richie McCaw
The only name I had to think about was Sir Brian Lochore - great player, captain, World Cup-winning coach, and manager. He was tough to leave out. I felt bad putting so many modern names in that list. I also thought about Dave Gallagher.
Australia
Col Windon
Trevor Allan
Ken Catchpole
Mark Ella
David Campese
John Eales
The big omission is Tim Horan! I thought about Mark Loane and what he meant to Australia, but in terms of natural talent there were better players. I'm not certain I should include Trevor Allan. They actually tried an Australian equivalent of the Immortals two years ago, and they selected Windon, Catchpole, Ella and Campese.
France
Lucien Mias
Robert Paparemborde
Walter Spanghero
Serge Blanco
Philippe Sella
Yeah pretty happy with this. Mias was the leading player when France finally became a good side in the 1950s, and led them to a series victory in SA in 1959 I think it was. I think Meads called Spanghero the toughest opponent he ever faced.
England
Jeff Butterfield
Fran Cotton
Peter Winterbottom
Martin Johnson
Richard Hill
No Jonny Wilkinson! I think this is about right. Jason Leonard has longevity, but a lot of those Tests he came on as a substitute. And he was never the world's best prop, though being extremely good!
Wales
Cliff Morgan
Gareth Edwards
J.P.R. Williams
Barry John
Graham Price
Gerald Davies
The big omission is Mervyn Davies. Bennett is also a huge omission, but we can't have too many 10s in here.
Ireland
Jack Kyle
Tony O’Reilly
Willie John McBride
Fergus Slattery
Mike Gibson
Keith Wood
Brian O’Driscoll
Pretty happy with this, really...
Scotland
Ian Smith
Ian McLaughlin
Colin Deans
John Rutherford
Andy Irvine
Gavin Hastings
Ian Smith was an awesome winger from the 1920s. I believe he sprinted in the Olympics. McLuaghlin drilled the life out of Hannes Marias - even South AFricans will admit this. Deans was maybe the best hooker of the 80s. Rutherford was their greatest ever five-eighth, Irvine their best player, etc.
South Africa
Danie Craven
Hennie Muller
Chris Koch
Frik du Preez
Danie Gerber
I think I got this right. Danie Craven deserves to be an "Immortal" because he was a legendary player, captain, coach and administrator. van der Westhausen was probably a better exponent of the position. But in terms of being an immortal, I think Dr Craven deserves to be in there.
I nearly forgot Chris Koch. But you can't have a South African Immortals list, and have no front-row forwards in there.
*** *******
George Nepia
Colin Meads
Michael Jones
Sean Fitzpatrick
Zinzan Brooke
Richie McCaw
The only name I had to think about was Sir Brian Lochore - great player, captain, World Cup-winning coach, and manager. He was tough to leave out. I felt bad putting so many modern names in that list. I also thought about Dave Gallagher.
Australia
Col Windon
Trevor Allan
Ken Catchpole
Mark Ella
David Campese
John Eales
The big omission is Tim Horan! I thought about Mark Loane and what he meant to Australia, but in terms of natural talent there were better players. I'm not certain I should include Trevor Allan. They actually tried an Australian equivalent of the Immortals two years ago, and they selected Windon, Catchpole, Ella and Campese.
France
Lucien Mias
Robert Paparemborde
Walter Spanghero
Serge Blanco
Philippe Sella
Yeah pretty happy with this. Mias was the leading player when France finally became a good side in the 1950s, and led them to a series victory in SA in 1959 I think it was. I think Meads called Spanghero the toughest opponent he ever faced.
England
Jeff Butterfield
Fran Cotton
Peter Winterbottom
Martin Johnson
Richard Hill
No Jonny Wilkinson! I think this is about right. Jason Leonard has longevity, but a lot of those Tests he came on as a substitute. And he was never the world's best prop, though being extremely good!
Wales
Cliff Morgan
Gareth Edwards
J.P.R. Williams
Barry John
Graham Price
Gerald Davies
The big omission is Mervyn Davies. Bennett is also a huge omission, but we can't have too many 10s in here.
Ireland
Jack Kyle
Tony O’Reilly
Willie John McBride
Fergus Slattery
Mike Gibson
Keith Wood
Brian O’Driscoll
Pretty happy with this, really...
Scotland
Ian Smith
Ian McLaughlin
Colin Deans
John Rutherford
Andy Irvine
Gavin Hastings
Ian Smith was an awesome winger from the 1920s. I believe he sprinted in the Olympics. McLuaghlin drilled the life out of Hannes Marias - even South AFricans will admit this. Deans was maybe the best hooker of the 80s. Rutherford was their greatest ever five-eighth, Irvine their best player, etc.
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