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Cricketweb decides the greatest bowler ever in a 64 player bracket. Contest thread.

kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
smalishah84 said:
By the same token Sangakkara's average has to be considered much better because he has been making runs on the spinning minefields of Sri Lanka?
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This argument is getting old.

The pitches in Sri Lanka are flat and unresponsive to pacers, which is what most opposing teams take into Sri Lanka.
 
smash84

smash84

The Tiger King
kyear2 said:
This argument is getting old.

The pitches in Sri Lanka are flat and unresponsive to pacers, which is what most opposing teams take into Sri Lanka.
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Oh, I forgot. The opposing teams are so totally dumb that they don't take any spinners to the well known spinning minefields of Sri Lanka. Right......
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
smalishah84 said:
No, that's not the argument.

The argument is that bowling your careers on certain types of pitches allows you to have a familiarity that makes your record on those pitches quite good even if those pitches are not generally thought to be conducive to the type of bowling that you bowl. Otherwise Wasim, Waqar and Imran should have been declared the greatest bowlers in history because the pitches in Pakistan are probably the roadiest in the world
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That doesn't make sense. Even Warne has a better record in Sri Lanka. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I would imagine Kapil has a better record in England than at home in India.
 
S

Sachin114

Cricket Spectator
smalishah84 said:
No, that's not the argument.

The argument is that bowling your careers on certain types of pitches allows you to have a familiarity that makes your record on those pitches quite good even if those pitches are not generally thought to be conducive to the type of bowling that you bowl. Otherwise Wasim, Waqar and Imran should have been declared the greatest bowlers in history because the pitches in Pakistan are probably the roadiest in the world
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It is a combination of factors. Coming from a country with helpful or unhelpful pitches does have a major impact. One of the reasons Lillee is rated so high despite not playing much outside of Australia and England is because he did well on flat Australian pitches (even though he became familiar with them). However the issue in this case is that there is a 8 point bowling average difference between Muralitharan and Warne, which is very large. So you can't say that the difference is solely because of the unhelpful Australian pitches.
 
S

Sachin114

Cricket Spectator
kyear2 said:
That doesn't make sense. Even Warne has a better record in Sri Lanka. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I would imagine Kapil has a better record in England than at home in India.
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No he does not. http://www.howstat.com/cricket/statistics/Players/PlayerCountries.asp?PlayerID=0443

However even if he did, it wouldn't be only because of the pitches. Kapil's record in Australia is significantly better than his record at home. Is that only because Australian pitches were that much more fast bowler friendly than Indian pitches?
 
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smash84

smash84

The Tiger King
Sachin114 said:
It is a combination of factors. Coming from a country with helpful or unhelpful pitches does have a major impact. One of the reasons Lillee is rated so high despite not playing much outside of Australia and England is because he did well on flat Australian pitches (even though he became familiar with them). However the issue in this case is that there is a 8 point bowling average difference between Muralitharan and Warne, which is very large. So you can't say that the difference is solely because of the unhelpful Australian pitches.
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I am not sure the pitches in Australia in Lillee's time were classified as pancakes compared to some of the other parts of the world. IIRC Lillee himself referred to Pakistan as the grave yard of fast bowlers since he felt that the pitches were so stupidly flat.

I never said that it is THE ONLY factor. I was just elaborating on your point.
 
smash84

smash84

The Tiger King
S

Sachin114

Cricket Spectator
smalishah84 said:
It's marginally better, wouldn't term 2 a difference of 2 runs as significantly better
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If you consider the Australian batsman he bowled at, it does seem odd that he did better in Australia compared to home. It surely wasn't just because of the pitches. There are many factors apart from the pitch that affect bowling performances.
 
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smash84

smash84

The Tiger King
Sachin114 said:
If you consider the Australian batsman he bowled at, it does seem odd that he did better in Australia compared to home. It surely wasn't just because of the pitches. There are many factors apart from the pitch that affect bowling performances.
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Would be interesting to note which aussie batsmen he did bowl to in the 1980s. Australia were not that great in the mid to late 1980s
 
smash84

smash84

The Tiger King
Sachin114 said:
If you consider the Australian batsman he bowled at, it does seem odd that he did better in Australia compared to home. It surely wasn't just because of the pitches. There are many factors apart from the pitch that affect bowling performances.
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Of course there are. When did I say that there aren't?
 
S

Sachin114

Cricket Spectator
smalishah84 said:
Would be interesting to note which aussie batsmen he did bowl to in the 1980s. Australia were not that great in the mid to late 1980s
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He bowled at Greg Chappell, Allan Border, Kim Hughes, David Boon, Doug Walters, Mark Taylor etc.
 
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S

Sachin114

Cricket Spectator
smalishah84 said:
Greg Chappell, Kim Hughes and Doug Walters had retired by the mid 1980s though..
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He played 6 matches in Australia before 1986 and 5 afterwards. So he faced those three batsman in three matches (in Australia).

He also faced Mark Waugh, Dean Jones, David Boon, Allan Border, Mark Taylor etc afterwards. Either way this wasn't a very weak Australian line up.
 
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smash84

smash84

The Tiger King
Sachin114 said:
He played 6 matches in Australia before 1986 and 5 afterwards. So he faced those three batsman in three matches (in Australia).

He also faced Mark Waugh, Dean Jones, Davod Boon, Allan Border, Mark Taylor etc afterwards. Either way this wasn't a very weak Australian line up.
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yeah, he did bowl to some decent batsmen, but that wasn't my initial point in any case. I was just elaborating on your initial point.

Now kyear2 has run away for a while, will probably pop his head in, say something about the greatness of MM and then disappear off again. It was his point that was being addressed in the first place :p
 
Slifer

Slifer

International Captain
Playing Devils advocate but I believe Shane warne has a pretty excellent record in SL so it can be assumed that had he played more tests in SL he'd be just as dominant as Murali. Murali on the other hand, sucked big time in Oz, which lends credence to the assumption that Oz is not as conducive for spinners.
 
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smash84

smash84

The Tiger King
Slifer said:
Playing Devils advocate but I believe Shane warne has a pretty excellent record in SL so it can be assumed that had he played more tests in SL he'd be just as dominant as Murali. Murali on the other hand, sucked big time in Oz, which lends credence to the assumption that Oz is not as conducive for spinners.
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There's no doubt that usually pitches in SL are more conducive to spin than they are in Australia.

Also Warne played alongside and ATG batting unit. It was extremely hard for any bowlers to do well against them
 
Howe_zat

Howe_zat

Audio File
Do you see what happens when we even got close to a Warne v Murali discussion? DO YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS

should have both been knocked out in the 3rd round at the latest
 
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