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**Official** Pakistan and England in the UAE 2015/16
- Thread starter broadyfan94
- Start date
wpdavid
Hall of Fame Member
Sounds right. And Cook, Root and Bairstow have done really well to rack up 180 at 3.5 an over.
Obviously the current pair are the key though. If they go quickly on Day 3, we could easily be facing a significant first innings deficit and be pretty much toasted trying to chase something around 350 on Days 4 & 5. Given how the pitch is likely to deteriorate, we'd ideally like to still be batting at the end of Day 3, but that's probably being greedy.
Looking at the earlier discussion, I can only echo those who say there's no way Bairstow shouldn't be given a run in the side after last season.
Taylor should probably be there instead of Bell, but it's easier for us to call that than the selectors, I suppose. Especially when there's a new opener as well.
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I think he deserves his chance at the moment, but I think the twin concerns are his technique is iffy at best, although no worse than Collingwood and he made a career as a decent test player, and if you look at his record he's played a lot of tests without being convincing in any.
Black_Warrior
Cricketer Of The Year
Yeah Rehman's decline and loss of form is hurting Pakistan more than Ajmal.
Yeah, I missed the collapse earlier, it wasn't in my mind. I was saying that as Cook was gone. But yeah you're right, this is by a distance England's day.
Howe_zat
Audio File
England's day comfortably I'd have thought. Six wickets in a session to stop Pakistan getting what looked like a dead cert 400+, and then a sizeable part of the way towards matching it.
The problem with dropping Bell at the moment is we haven't got a second opener or established number 5 batsman - so if you drop him there's no real experience in the team. Bell has always been a bit feast or famine. My guess is he's in terminal decline, but I can see the selector's hope he has one more purple patch to go. At his best he is far and away the best of the group chasing a spot or hanging on to a place - its whether the best is over.
Black_Warrior
Cricketer Of The Year
"These barren surfaces on which spinners probe away with men round the bat are just the sort they will encounter in the higher-profile Tests against India next winter." Simon Hughes
One of the most condescending piece I have read.
https://blog.betway.com/other-sport...-is-a-sanitised-version-of-the-real-pakistan/
And that's why guys, Botham doesn't know about Shafiq and Mark Nicholas can barely name a Pakistan current player beyond Misbah and YK.
One of the most condescending piece I have read.
https://blog.betway.com/other-sport...-is-a-sanitised-version-of-the-real-pakistan/
And that's why guys, Botham doesn't know about Shafiq and Mark Nicholas can barely name a Pakistan current player beyond Misbah and YK.
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Black_Warrior
Cricketer Of The Year
Yeah corrected myself. I had missed the collapse earlier.
Scaly piscine
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Experience isn't much use walking back to the pavilion and sitting with your pads on. Not that I'm a great believer in experience. Cricketing common sense and skill go a hell of a lot further.
He may well have another period of averaging 50-60 in him. But it won't be as long as the period where he's averaging 20-30 and dropping catches. The upside with Bell isn't good enough. We're talking about a downhill skier who barely averages over 40.
ScottyMuser
Cricket Spectator
Just thought I'd argue the stats case, being a bit of a statto myself and having checked all the stats out myself:
On overall FC average, *include* the Test matches they have both played, Taylor averages 47.2 (132 matches) and Bairstow averages 45.59 (117 matches). Thats what you see on cricinfo when viewing career averages.
However, as Bairstow has played in 18 matches, and Taylor only 2, Bairstow has his average drop more because of the test matches than Taylor does. So, comparing like for like, dropping the test matches but leaving all other FC cricket in, Taylor now averages 47.71 (only a slight uptick cause by so few test matches to drop out), but Bairstow now averages 49.63, a much larger uptick and now a higher average than Taylor does.
That is only part of the story, and the further we go down this wormhole, the worst it looks for Taylor - if we then were to try to be even fairer, and exclude the non-LVCC matches from their First Class Career (easy to do, if time consuming), to try and compare purely like for like, Bairstow now averages 50.43 (surprisingly an uptick, which is usually not what you'd expect, showing against the uni and some development sides he hasn't always cashed in like others); Taylor though drops again to an average of 43.33 (and this includes 3 full seasons in division 2 with Leics, where he averaged 45.78 - he averages 41.36 for Notts in Div 1).
Pretty much season on season, in the LVCC, Bairstow has out-averaged Taylor - than Taylors first 2 years in Div2 where he averaged 65.78 and 44.65 (compared to Bairstow's 45.53 and 41.73 for the same years), since then Bairstow has "won" 4/5 years (the one he didn't, 2013, he 40.62 from only 8 matches, Taylor 46.25 from 15).
Apologies for the data dump there, now to my feelings:
I think that Bairstow, thanks to his utterly brilliant year last year (and very good years 3 out of the 4 previous) does deserve this chance - he *is* a much better player now than he was 3 years ago, and it would be unfair on him to hold a small number of tests in 2012/13, as well as a very difficult under-pressure Ashes series against him, and picking someone else. Taylor is clearly the next man in line, and has been groomed as such by the England development team, preferring him at Lions level to Bairstow et al. However, his more recent record *when compared like for like against Bairstow* clearly comes up second best, and is why (correctly in my opinion) JB was preferred to him in these two tests. Due to both Bell's AND Buttler's form, he could consider himself very unlucky neither of those 2 got dropped, as he is clearly the next best option in the middle order (at least according to the England management), and Bell should be dropped anyway to make room for him. I think what counts against Bairstow in some people's eyes is two-fold - firstly is that he is a wicket-keeper, and therefore people think he should only be picked to replace Buttler, rather than as an out and out bat; and secondly that he did have a few tests 3 years ago, and people thought he was out of his depth then and don't think he can change.
Anyway, let's get behind whomever is picked, as both have shown in the county game that they are big characters, and should be able to stay involved in the set-up for years to come!
On overall FC average, *include* the Test matches they have both played, Taylor averages 47.2 (132 matches) and Bairstow averages 45.59 (117 matches). Thats what you see on cricinfo when viewing career averages.
However, as Bairstow has played in 18 matches, and Taylor only 2, Bairstow has his average drop more because of the test matches than Taylor does. So, comparing like for like, dropping the test matches but leaving all other FC cricket in, Taylor now averages 47.71 (only a slight uptick cause by so few test matches to drop out), but Bairstow now averages 49.63, a much larger uptick and now a higher average than Taylor does.
That is only part of the story, and the further we go down this wormhole, the worst it looks for Taylor - if we then were to try to be even fairer, and exclude the non-LVCC matches from their First Class Career (easy to do, if time consuming), to try and compare purely like for like, Bairstow now averages 50.43 (surprisingly an uptick, which is usually not what you'd expect, showing against the uni and some development sides he hasn't always cashed in like others); Taylor though drops again to an average of 43.33 (and this includes 3 full seasons in division 2 with Leics, where he averaged 45.78 - he averages 41.36 for Notts in Div 1).
Pretty much season on season, in the LVCC, Bairstow has out-averaged Taylor - than Taylors first 2 years in Div2 where he averaged 65.78 and 44.65 (compared to Bairstow's 45.53 and 41.73 for the same years), since then Bairstow has "won" 4/5 years (the one he didn't, 2013, he 40.62 from only 8 matches, Taylor 46.25 from 15).
Apologies for the data dump there, now to my feelings:
I think that Bairstow, thanks to his utterly brilliant year last year (and very good years 3 out of the 4 previous) does deserve this chance - he *is* a much better player now than he was 3 years ago, and it would be unfair on him to hold a small number of tests in 2012/13, as well as a very difficult under-pressure Ashes series against him, and picking someone else. Taylor is clearly the next man in line, and has been groomed as such by the England development team, preferring him at Lions level to Bairstow et al. However, his more recent record *when compared like for like against Bairstow* clearly comes up second best, and is why (correctly in my opinion) JB was preferred to him in these two tests. Due to both Bell's AND Buttler's form, he could consider himself very unlucky neither of those 2 got dropped, as he is clearly the next best option in the middle order (at least according to the England management), and Bell should be dropped anyway to make room for him. I think what counts against Bairstow in some people's eyes is two-fold - firstly is that he is a wicket-keeper, and therefore people think he should only be picked to replace Buttler, rather than as an out and out bat; and secondly that he did have a few tests 3 years ago, and people thought he was out of his depth then and don't think he can change.
Anyway, let's get behind whomever is picked, as both have shown in the county game that they are big characters, and should be able to stay involved in the set-up for years to come!
Scaly piscine
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Presumably you're excluding some Lions matches there too.
flibbertyjibber
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Lyth was the same, got picked due to weight of runs in CC. Not the selectors fault for picking the form man if that man doesn't step up. Got to be given a fair chance though not just a couple of games. Lyth got one, Bairstow needs a score but hasn't been worst player in the side since he was recalled anyway but people with agendas ignore that.
ScottyMuser
Cricket Spectator
yep - the exclusions were: 1) None, all carreer stats; 2) Exclude Test matches; 3) Exclude ALL non LVCC matches (i.e. Lions, England tour parties, Uni matches, etc)
This was done as I personally think it is a fairer way of comparing their statistics as I am not personally sure how much value the team brings to the England Setup, and also shows exactly why Taylor is in the position he is (and has been for the last year) of 1st/2nd backup, with other players leap-frogging him, playing a few matches off better first class seasons, doing poorly, then getting dropped.
For the numbers, Taylor has played in 16 Lions matches, and in those averaged 60.21 (so miles higher than his LVCC) - when compared to Bairstow's 15 matches, with an average of 46.21
This could indicate that, if you believe the Lions is a step up (I am not sure it is, especially vs first division cricket) that Taylor has shown a more calm head, and is actually interesting as I didn't actually realise Bairstow had played that many games for them; either way I still think my justification of removing them and only focussing on the LVCC is a fair one.
theegyptian
International Vice-Captain
Out of the batsmen in the England team who has played worse than Bairstow since he came back? Lyth yes and he was dropped. Can't see any other batsman who have been worse than Bairstow.
I had no problem when bairstow came back into the team and he needs a decent run but also you can't pretend that 18 tests at an average of 26 is insignificant either.
I don't think anyone was being over critical of Bairstow here.
Moss
International Vice-Captain
Quite surprised Simon Hughes has written that piece. If his book "Yakking Around the World" is anything to go by, he's quite the traveller and takes a fair amount of interest in happenings outside England.
theegyptian
International Vice-Captain
well they are higher profile tbf. The games in India be watched by more people on tv and in the stadiums and have more press.
flibbertyjibber
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Bell and Buttler for a start. Seeing as Bairstow is a keeper then he comes into the equation against Ginger Jonny.
Bairstow was dropped rightly and went away and scored a mountain of runs and got picked again. You can't just dump him after a handful of games particularly when there is nobody really knocking down the door and others are struggling just as much as he is. If anyone is to be dropped it should be Bell, mid 30's in decline and no sign of him coming good.
theegyptian
International Vice-Captain
Nah Bell has made a couple of important knocks. Buttler isn't a bat in this team he's a wicketkeeper. If Bairstow could catch the ball he'd probably be wicketkeeper but in the past year he's made a number of mistakes in televised games behind the stumps and Buttler's keeping has improved a lot.