**Official** Pakistan and England in the UAE 2015/16

[Spark]

Think this might be a case of off spin v the left or right hander

or something

Nah, re: Cook, he didn't have any problems against Ashwin, for example. It's all about the bounce Lyon gets on Australian/English pitches which makes Cook's usual strength - the cut shot - actually really dangerous, so it really kills his scoring options if he puts it away. Cabi to confirm.

That's not to say Cook is hopeless against Lyon ofc, as his 2nd innings knock at the Oval attests. Just that Lyon has a genuine weapon against Cook that other spinners don't.

 

[Furball]

Eh, I'm inclined to agree with parts of *****'s post but it ignores how Warne and murali got flattened virtually every time they toured India. And they didn't bowl badly at all. The ability of Asian teams to play spin is over exaggerated sure, but it's definitely not a myth. The simple basics of soft hands while defending and avoiding lunging at the ball on the front door have generally been more prevalent in the batting make up of an Asian batsman than that of an average non Asian batsman. Their tendency stay low at the crease and knowing when to cut and when to not (which is something ian bell is oblivious to) also helps vs spin.

Murali did pretty well against India in Sri Lanka though did he not?

 

[Furball]

Think this might be a case of off spin v the left or right hander

or something

or good spinners are better than mediocre spinners.

 

[Black_Warrior]

To be fair the days of people blindly assuming just because teams are Asian are beasts against spin are gone. Pak of the current Asian sides do have the most spin bullies, Hafeez, Malik, Younis, Misbah and Sarfraz. Shafiq is not to bad but probably not in the class of the rest. Azhar can get bogged down, but the worst is probably Shezhad and Masood who has looked inept at times.

It seems my original post started this discussion.

What I was trying to say was, Pakistan (especially the current lot) is not as good at playing spin as India or Sri Lanka.

Pakistani batsmen are different from the Indian/Sri Lankan (Sanga, Mahela) in that they are not that good with footwork as say a Laxman or Tendulkar or even a Lara. You will rarely see a current Pakistani batsmen use the crease, that is have the ability to move back from forward when playing turn, the way Laxman did in 01 or Lara did against Murali. Now of course those are high standards, but very few spinners will force you to do that.

Their go to strategy against spinners is to sweep, which works for most part when up against Lyon or Sodhi.. But if a spinner gets some vicious turn or bounce (or has the mystery ball), the pre meditated sweep shot doesn't always work..which is why Warne has pretty much walked all over Pakistan every time. The only guy who Warne rated was Anwar who actually has a pretty good record against both Warne and Murali because he was able to use his feet rather than try to sweep every time.

Pakistan have had trouble against Warne, Murali, Kumble, Herath, Panesar, Rashid (in the second innings). My original point was, people often lump them together with India, Sri Lanka and say 'oh Asian batsmen are great against spin'. Not saying Pakistan are as bad as say the current Australian team, but they are nowhere near India, maybe close to Sri Lanka now (with Sanga and Mahela gone).


Going back to this series, if Dubai is a turning track, it is going to be a cracker of a game..quite low scoring I'd suspect because if Yasir runs through England, expect Rashid to run through Pakistan. Rashid does turn the ball a great deal, and has a googly which Pakistani batsmen are not always able to pick.

 

[hendrix]

Yeah I think Root's technically better but I'd take Cook against an army of spinners every time.

Think Cook's position as an opener in asia is what makes him the behemoth he is. He's extremely unlikely to get himself out to pace bowlers when there's no movement, so he's already pretty much deflated half the opposition attack by the time he gets to the spinners, where he can just gorge himself (read: take small bite size proportions, chew thoroughly, swallow, regurgitate, swallow some more, move to 4th stomach, digest, destroy environment with methane belching etc)...

 

[Cabinet96]

Nah, re: Cook, he didn't have any problems against Ashwin, for example. It's all about the bounce Lyon gets on Australian/English pitches which makes Cook's usual strength - the cut shot - actually really dangerous, so it really kills his scoring options if he puts it away. Cabi to confirm.

That's not to say Cook is hopeless against Lyon ofc, as his 2nd innings knock at the Oval attests. Just that Lyon has a genuine weapon against Cook that other spinners don't.

Yeah, and even cross batted shots in general. He definitely swept more regularly during the 1st test than at any stage during the summer. Though a lot of that was from the left armer outside off stump he definitely did it to Malik a bit.

 

[Dan]

It seems my original post started this discussion.

What I was trying to say was, Pakistan (especially the current lot) is not as good at playing spin as India or Sri Lanka.

Pakistani batsmen are different from the Indian/Sri Lankan (Sanga, Mahela) in that they are not that good with footwork as say a Laxman or Tendulkar or even a Lara. You will rarely see a current Pakistani batsmen use the crease, that is have the ability to move back from forward when playing turn, the way Laxman did in 01 or Lara did against Murali. Now of course those are high standards, but very few spinners will force you to do that.

Their go to strategy against spinners is to sweep, which works for most part when up against Lyon or Sodhi.. But if a spinner gets some vicious turn or bounce (or has the mystery ball), the pre meditated sweep shot doesn't always work..which is why Warne has pretty much walked all over Pakistan every time. The only guy who Warne rated was Anwar who actually has a pretty good record against both Warne and Murali because he was able to use his feet rather than try to sweep every time.

Pakistan have had trouble against Warne, Murali, Kumble, Herath, Panesar, Rashid (in the second innings). My original point was, people often lump them together with India, Sri Lanka and say 'oh Asian batsmen are great against spin'. Not saying Pakistan are as bad as say the current Australian team, but they are nowhere near India, maybe close to Sri Lanka now (with Sanga and Mahela gone).


Going back to this series, if Dubai is a turning track, it is going to be a cracker of a game..quite low scoring I'd suspect because if Yasir runs through England, expect Rashid to run through Pakistan. Rashid does turn the ball a great deal, and has a googly which Pakistani batsmen are not always able to pick.

Huh?

You're saying the sweep works against Lyon or Sodhi, but not against spinners who get bounce. Lyon and Sodhi are two spinners who do get bounce...

 

[Black_Warrior]

Huh?

You're saying the sweep works against Lyon or Sodhi, but not against spinners who get bounce. Lyon and Sodhi are two spinners who do get bounce...

Not a lot in the series last year though. They repeatedly used the sweep against him to nullify

 

[Black_Warrior]

The new column by Misbah

We panicked, but Yasir is our match-winner | cricket.com.au


I really hope they rule out the 3 spinners strategy. Imran bowled fairly well and he is the only bowler who can swing the ball a little bit. Playing 3 spinners means putting all our eggs in one basket and if in case it doesn't turn as much, you're screwed.

 

[Niall]

The new column by Misbah

We panicked, but Yasir is our match-winner | cricket.com.au


I really hope they rule out the 3 spinners strategy. Imran bowled fairly well and he is the only bowler who can swing the ball a little bit. Playing 3 spinners means putting all our eggs in one basket and if in case it doesn't turn as much, you're screwed.

They have Malik as well who to be fair to him bowled decently enough last test so with him Zulfi and Yasir that should be enough of spin. It would be mad to go in with just one front line quick.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Would you consider Asif over Zulfi?

 

[Niall]

Would you consider Asif over Zulfi?

I dunno.

Have been thinking about for a while now, Zulfi is not the bowler he once was, Malik outbowled him last test, he kept it tight first innings but did not concern England whatsoever.

Although, its hard to get to excited about Asif as a bowler either, okish first class stats, but very little international experience. Running through a crap Zimbabwe side does't really prepare you for Joe Root and Cook. Although he would add some much needed lower order batting which is important with Rashid especially noted for his ability to wrap up an innings very quickly.

I'd probably stick with Babar, he doesn't excite me to much, but he is probably is a safer option than Asif, and to be fair to Zulfi, Yasir back takes a lot of pressure off him, Zulfi can strangle the runrate at one end while Yasir can cause damage at the other end without worrying to much if the batsmen get after him.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Yeah I am mainly going by Misbah's judgement here. From what I hear, he rates Asif quite highly, and fought to get him into contention. He bowled decently in the domestic T20 tournament. Having said that, there is also the factor of playing 2 off spinners..although Malik is hardly a major threat.

Zulfi is not that bad, in the sense that he keeps things tight which really helps Misbah's approach which is to dry up the runs. He managed to frustrate the Australian batsmen last year who love to score freely. But whether this kind of thing will work on Cook and Root, I am not sure.

 

[91Jmay]

Fair comments RE Root vs Cook. I still think Root is better player of spin but Cook is certainly more proven which is all that matters really.

 

[Furball]

Cook isn't dominant but his footwork tends to be decisive, he's solid in defence and has enough shots to punish bad bowling.

One aspect of Cook's batting that's massively under-rated is his ability to work easy singles that keep the scoreboard ticking. I'd actually be curious as to how many of Cook's dot balls are from blocking as opposed to leaving.

 

[Compton]

Cook isn't dominant but his footwork tends to be decisive, he's solid in defence and has enough shots to punish bad bowling.

One aspect of Cook's batting that's massively under-rated is his ability to work easy singles that keep the scoreboard ticking. I'd actually be curious as to how many of Cook's dot balls are from blocking as opposed to leaving.

Yeah this is an interesting point. Cook leaves the ball so well that when he actually does look to play it, he aims to make sure he gets something from it.

If the pitch isn't doing you any favours, you'll do well to get him out cheaply.

 

[Howe_zat]

Damn Cook and his poor tossing technique

 

[Howe_zat]

Average 1st team innings score here is 297, with only one score over 454 in 8 matches, and Pakistan have been bowled out for less than 250 in half their first innings. So there's every reason to expect better of this wicket than the Abu Dhabi one.

 

[Howe_zat]

...I don't know what I expected.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Quite happy that they didn't drop Masood for Shehzad. Drop him when Azhar comes back..but not for Shehzad