**Official** Pakistan and England in the UAE 2015/16

[smash84]

He was named top 5 cricketers of the century ffs. Come on.

Yeah but did he really deserve that 6 or 7 years into his career is quite debatable.

 

[Jono]

That's not the point, the point is to be considered for that by Wisden he was obviously not mediocre. Deadset look at his record in the 90s. His career average didn't go above 25 and he consistently got wickets. To call Warne a mediocre spinner in the 90s is one of the most wrong things I've ever read on this forum.

 

[Pratters]

Warne not only took 350 wickets at just over 25 in the 90s, he made spin bowling ***y again. He revitalised spin bowling. We had Qadir before but Warne was a phenomena. It was fair enough to have him as one of the cricketers of the century.

 

[cnerd123]

That's not the point, the point is to be considered for that by Wisden he was obviously not mediocre. Deadset look at his record in the 90s. His career average didn't go above 25 and he consistently got wickets. To call Warne a mediocre spinner in the 90s is one of the most wrong things I've ever read on this forum.

I maybe have been thinking early 90s debut warne and not late 90s warne that I now realise you were referring to

 

[OverratedSanity]

I maybe have been thinking early 90s debut warne and not late 90s warne that I now realise you were referring to

In fact, early Warne of 93-96 was arguably better than 98-99 Warne who struggled with injuries a bit. After his first few series, Warne just immediately started performing at an atg level. It was a pretty astonishing improvement over a very short time.

 

[Pratters]

Always wondered why Mushtaq Ahmed didn't play more.

 

[cnerd123]

He was very definitely mediocre when he debuted against India tho, which is what I was referring to.

1998 Warne still had to bowl against Sachin, Dravid and co though. Basically all his encounters against India barring his debut series were against ATG batsmen who were at the top of their game (at various points this was either Sachin, Dravid or Laxman). No spinner would have stood a chance against those guys in that form. That was the abbé ration and should be remembered as such, but is instead considered the normal standard to hold Indian (and Asian) batsmen up to.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Lol wait who were these other atg Indian batsmen in the 90s? Dravid wasn't close to the batsman he was later on and Warne actually had some success against him.

Where Warne was really taken to the cleaners was vs Sidhu, Ganguly Azharuddin and Tendulkar. Sadagoppan ramesh and SS Das hit him around ffs. Apart from Tendulkar none of those are top tier atgs. They just played him very well.

 

[Pratters]

Not having a lot of tours in India was surely a factor in 1998. There was the baked beans incident where they had tons of beans imported or some thing. If Warne was playing in India in the 90s regularly with some thing like the IPL, I am pretty sure he would have done better in '98. India did a tremendous job with Sidhu and Tendulkar (at his peak). It's not that Warne was terrible. He just didn't know how to bowl on the smaller grounds v these players who took the counter to him.

 

[cnerd123]

Ganguly and Azhar pretty high up in terms of batsmen too. And Sidhu in peak form was, according to Warne himself, one of the hardest batsmen to bowl to.

No recollection of Ramesh and SS Das hitting him about tho. That's weird. I was like 7 when that series happened tho so don't remember much. Will go back read up a bit more. Seems unlikely that Warne was bowling well to batsmen like Ramesh/Das and then getting hit about. My gut tells me he was dismantled by Sachin/Azhar/Sidhu early on, and then lack of experience + difficulty adapting to India made him easy pickings for the rest of the series.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Ganguly and Azhar pretty high up in terms of batsmen too. And Sidhu in peak form was, according to Warne himself, one of the hardest batsmen to bowl to.

No recollection of Ramesh and SS Das hitting him about tho. That's weird. I was like 7 when that series happened tho so don't remember much. Will go back read up a bit more. Seems unlikely that Warne was bowling well to batsmen like Ramesh/Das and then getting hit about. My gut tells me he was dismantled by Sachin/Azhar/Sidhu early on, and then lack of experience + difficulty adapting to India made him easy pickings for the rest of the series.

omg you're just gonna do the chicken and egg thing aren't you

"Look, these bowlers who bowled to the Aussie lineup averaged so much during the series, clearly they were bowling badly, and that's why the Aussies scored so many runs"
"Look, these bowlers who bowled to the English lineup averaged so little during the series, clearly they were bowling well, and that's why England didn't score so many runs"

...

 

[cnerd123]

I said 'read up' not 'statsguru it' ****.

Match reports are much more telling.

 

[OverratedSanity]

But you're still doing the circular logic thing

 

[Pratters]

Ramesh had his test debut in 1999. He bossed around Akram and Akhtar, not Warne.

 

[cnerd123]

But you're still doing the circular logic thing

Not yet, haven't made a stance on the 98 series.

'93 was Warne being mediocre -it is widely acknowledged that it wasn't till his first Ashes that he really found his feet- and post-2000s was Warne being taken apart by some ATG batting -which is an assertion I make based on what I saw.

Didn't watch '98 but will go check if it was Warne bowling poorly, or bowling as well as he did anywhere else but being taken apart. My gut says it's the former based on what little I know of the series, but I'll look into it.

 

[cnerd123]

Ramesh had his test debut in 1999. He bossed around Akram and Akhtar, not Warne.

FFS OS get your **** together.

 

[OverratedSanity]

You guys need to spend more weekends watching 2001 India vs Aus series highlights like me. They spanked him around at Chennai really bad.

Yeah it's not the 90s but don't be a pedant.

 

[Pratters]

You guys need to spend more weekends watching 2001 India vs Aus series highlights like me. They spanked him around at Chennai really bad.

Yeah it's not the 90s but don't be a pedant.

In 3 tests in 2001, Ramesh hit just one 50 and averaged 27 v Australia. SS Das also hit 1 50 in 3 tests and averaged 24.66.

 

[OverratedSanity]

In 3 tests in 2001, Ramesh hit just one 50 and averaged 27 v Australia. SS Das also hit 1 50 in 3 tests and averaged 24.66.

Has nothing to do with what I said.

ie. They spanked Warne at Chennai. In fact it backs up my point that they were average batsmen who despite struggling against the Aussie attack as a whole, took to Warne on occasion.

You and ***** are making no sense, and are being pedants.

 

[cnerd123]

2001 was VVS Laxman in God mode and Dravid killing it too...which basically proves my point.