*Official* New Zealand in England 2015

[Hurricane]

Disagree on this. Yeah you can quibble with McCullum keeping his field placements up for too long. But from my point of view, the two things that were most responsible for us losing the Lord's test were:

a) the fact that England played brilliant cricket, especially on days 4 and 5; and
b) New Zealand's bowlers - Boult aside - were poor. Southee looked every inch like a bowler who'd just hopped off a plane from the IPL, Henry was all over the shop with his lengths, and Craig had one of his Mr. Hyde matches. You can say that McCullum should've dropped his field back more quickly - but it's hard to protect boundaries when the bowlers keep serving up half trackers.

I am ok with the bowling. He is not accountable for that,

At 2 wickets down in 3 overs he should have abandoned the chase but he never gave up.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

I reserve my opinion on Watling mark II.

He is a fighter, not a dasher or elegant textbook. Fighter's are good. Steve Waugh was a fighter. Allan Border was a fighter. He was accused of only having three shots. Boycott was a fighter (and boring).

But BJ looked so in control in England. Almost elegant at times. Has he been playing above his potential of late? There is a good argument for that. But for how long does it continue before his perceived potential is reassessed? Fighters are not as talented as other batsmen, but they can score enough runs to be talked about among the best ever. Knowing what strokes that you do not have the talent to play with sufficient success (runs achieved as against dismissals) and not playing them is smart, even if lacking talent. Same for leaving or defending the balls where the shot selection would be a personal weak shot.

I hear what Hurricane is saying. But BJ has just been playing brilliantly for NZ for two years now. His first class season between England and Sri Lanka was not that fancy.

Is he growing another leg when he plays for NZ? I don't know. But I think he is a brilliant little cricketer for his performances over the last two years and hope that it continues. He plays test cricket smart, that is good enough for me. He is definitely maximizing every single drop of talent that he has. If he can continue to do that, he will be our next test captain. People will follow him.

I think he has earnt the right to bat 6, even when keeping. Neesham, Anderson, or a new batsmen can make their way in the team at 7. There are two reasons. Take some of the pressure off a new guy or an allrounder with the bat, and also that Watling is not a dasher so as to score quick runs with the number 11. I'm sure he will bat more often with the tail, but he has earnt the opportunity to bat with the specialist batsmen more regularly.

 

[Bahnz]

Yeah, but like I said, pretty much none of our batsmen's dismissals were due to an aggressive mindset, and pretty much all of them were due to quality bowling or poor batting (Taylor's dismissal especially).

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

How is Bahnz one of the least negative posters in the thread.

 

[Flem274*]

It's pretty simple really.

Does Watling have strong zones and a good defense? Yes
Does Watling have the ability to both dig in and hit out? Yes
Does Watling have the concentration to dig in meaningfully? Yes
Does Watling have the nous to hit out without getting out? So far, so good

What seperates a Watling dig in from a Flynn dig in is Watling doesn't lose his concentration on 40*, he bats and he bats and he bats and has the defensive game to do it.

This doesn't mean he will average 50 forever, but he's going to score plenty of runs for a wicketkeeper batsman.

 

[OverratedSanity]

This doesn't mean he will average 50 forever, but he's going to score plenty of runs for a wicketkeeper batsman.

Yeah that's what I was pointing out. I was afraid I wasn't making any sense.

 

[kiwiviktor81]

How's this for a post-McCullum era lineup:

1. Guptill
2. Watling
3. Williamson
4. Taylor
5. Latham
6. Anderson
7. Santner
8. Wheeler
9. Southee
10. Henry
11. Boult

 

[Flem274*]

How's this for a post-McCullum era lineup:

1. Guptill
2. Watling
3. Williamson
4. Taylor
5. Latham
6. Anderson
7. Santner
8. Wheeler
9. Southee
10. Henry
11. Boult

i was about to tear you a new one before realising it was odis

i'd go with similar but swap watling and latham in the order.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

Needs less Latham. Needs more Milne. Can Wheeler become a genuine engine room bat? Not convinced that Watling will develop to odi opener with Guptil. He well may. But yeah.

Would not have 5 bowlers plus Anderson. Only 4, one who can bat 8.

 

[hendrix]

Watling made most age group sides, didn't he? He also keeps exceptionally well to spinners for someone who hasn't had that much experience doing it. That's not something that comes easily to people unless you have superb hand-eye coordination. I think he has quite a bit more cricketing pedigree than we're giving him credit for.

 

[kiwiviktor81]

Milne to replace Henry or Wheeler. Or whoever's injured. We have to face the reality that there's likely to be injuries at many points on the road to winning the 2019 CWC.

I reckon Watling's got what it takes to bat in the top 5 in ODIs, opening or otherwise.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

Milne to replace Henry or Wheeler. Or whoever's injured. We have to face the reality that there's likely to be injuries at many points on the road to winning the 2019 CWC.

I reckon Watling's got what it takes to bat in the top 5 in ODIs, opening or otherwise.

Im not going to debate Watling, but I am debating the 5 bowlers and Anderson. Need runs.

 

[hendrix]

i was about to tear you a new one before realising it was odis

i'd go with similar but swap watling and latham in the order.

yeah and Latham being left hander smooths out the top order a bit.

I'd go:

Latham (MVP, VC, PhD, MD, QSM, NZOM, NZAM)
Guptill
Williamson (C)
Taylor
Anderson
Watling (W)
Neesh
Milne
Sodhi
Southee
Boult

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

yeah and Latham being left hander smooths out the top order a bit.

I'd go:

Latham (MVP, VC, PhD, MD, QSM, NZOM, NZAM)
Guptill
Williamson (C)
Taylor
Anderson
Watling (W)
Neesh
Milne
Sodhi
Southee
Boult

Too much tail. Not much firepower in the batting neither. Assuming Ronchi does not make it and Munro succeeds in his next opportunity...

1. Ryder (6)
2. Guptill (9)
3. Williamson (7)
4. Taylor
5. Watling (w)
6. Munro (8)
7. Anderson (5)
8. Santner (4)
9. Milne (3)
10. Southee (2)
11. Boult (1)
12 Neesham
13 Sodhi
14 Henry/Bennett (lets face it - if a seam bowler breaks down its more likely to be Milne than Boult).
15 A batsman or a keeper/bat. If keeper/bat then maybe swap Neesham for a batsman if the bowlers are fitter than ever. I would take a batsman and keep a keeper on standby in NZ.

Plenty of runs in Watling, Taylor and Williamson. Firepower in Anderson and Munro. Guptill and Ryder for the mix. And Santner at 8 to get teams home if required. Lots of bowling options too. Probably need a spare batsman in the squad - which may mean Neesham misses out on the squad. I reckon that is about as good as could be selected tomorrow post Ronchi, Elliot and McCullum.

 

[hendrix]

Too much tail.

Neesham at 7 and Sodhi at 8? I'm pretty happy with that.

This is an ODI side remember, not tests.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

Neesham at 7 and Sodhi at 8? I'm pretty happy with that.

This is an ODI side remember, not tests.

I know its ODI. Look at the batting difference in my team structure. Sodhi, if he is good at ODI will create a number 8 headache. Good to have headaches.

 

[Flem274*]

this is why the selectors are so keen on murali santa though. it's pretty obvious they're looking at him as a genuine allrounder with the faith shown in his batting (batted #6 in ODIs and #3 in the warm up FC match) and bowling.

They want batting plus genuine allrounders down to #8 and tbh I agree. We have a chance to pull it off so give it a crack.

 

[kiwiviktor81]

We're lucky in that we've got so much cake at the top with Guptill, Williamson and Taylor that we could afford to play a bunch of slogger from 5-7, provided one can bowl and one can keep.

We could end up going

1. Guptill
2. Watling
3. Williamson
4. Taylor
5. Ronchi
6. Anderson
7. Munro
8. Santner
9. Milne
10. Southee
11. Boult

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

We're lucky in that we've got so much cake at the top with Guptill, Williamson and Taylor that we could afford to play a bunch of slogger from 5-7, provided one can bowl and one can keep.

We could end up going

1. Guptill
2. Watling
3. Williamson
4. Taylor
5. Ronchi
6. Anderson
7. Munro
8. Santner
9. Milne
10. Southee
11. Boult

Yeah but Watling and Ronchi don't both make the ODI team. Ronchi will lose his spot if Watling comes into the side. Better to get Jesse sober or develop a better batsman than Ronchi. But then your team and my team match, just depending on where Watling bats. I first thought of him as an opener, but then thought that maybe the Elliot role would suit him with Munro and Anderson batting with him as the wickets following. That enables Jesse to open - which we know he will make use of the powerplay and then bat sensibly.

I would swap Munro and Anderson around in the batting order. But that is just my preference.

 

[Prince EWS]

Ronchi's older than McCullum anyway. If we're talking about the side in a post-McCullum, post-Elliott world and looking towards the next WC, I doubt Ronchi will be around.