Can Sunil Narine become an all time great?

[Daemon]

Think Dan took the whole 'make a living' post from Furball too literally

 

[hendrix]

You talk as if a captain punching someone is admirable behaviour.
Those guys grew up in a different time and have different value systems than us. We hear all the time about guys like Colin Meads and Buck Shelford but if they were around today they'd be common thugs.
Honestly, I have a hard time being at all nationalistic. That doesn't mean I don't love my country - just that I love people more than I love borders.

There are a lot of things more important than representing your country in sports.

 

[Hurricane]

You talk as if a captain punching someone is admirable behaviour.
Those guys grew up in a different time and have different value systems than us. We hear all the time about guys like Colin Meads and Buck Shelford but if they were around today they'd be common thugs.
Honestly, I have a hard time being at all nationalistic. That doesn't mean I don't love my country - just that I love people more than I love borders.

There are a lot of things more important than representing your country in sports.

Then perhaps I grew up in different times as well given I was born in the early 70s. So yes part of this could be different generational attitudes towards representing your country and national pride. The guys in charge of the WICB will be my age or older. Remember I did say these words in my post " I can't relate to a new generation of cricketers who don't share a value system that it is important to serve something bigger than yourself and contribute to your community."

 

[Maximas]

Just because your franchise isn't your country doesn't mean it's easy to let them down, which is what Narine would be doing when they most needed him if he left for the test side, it's hardly fair to claim Narine was thinking of no one but himself in this case

 

[wellAlbidarned]

Then perhaps I grew up in different times as well given I was born in the early 70s. So yes part of this could be different generational attitudes towards representing your country and national pride. The guys in charge of the WICB will be my age or older. Remember I did say these words in my post " I can't relate to a new generation of cricketers who don't share a value system that it is important to serve something bigger than yourself and contribute to your community."

Going to the cynical extreme, your country is just an arbitrary set of fences which you happened to be born within. Why should you feel pride in that?

 

[Prince EWS]

If one of my friends unreasonably made me choose between them and another friend I had similar or even slightly less loyalty to, I'd more than likely side with the one who wasn't being a dick and forcing me into that situation.

Narine, when forced to make a decision between two sides, chose the side that wasn't being a complete dick. His IPL side definitely did nothing to force him into this unenviable position.

The WICB have held him to ransom and he's told them to **** off. For this I salute him, as much as it's a personally disappointing outcome for myself. He could've quite easily played the IPL game and still been back in time for the Test, and given he was told he'd be able to play the whole tournament originally he went ahead and did exactly that.

It's the WICB that have created the situation as we see it now. I'd have been happier as a cricket fan if Narine caved into the demands but I can't say I would have caved myself, even ignoring the financial aspect.

 

[Prince EWS]

Another thing to consider, Hurricane, is that West Indies is not a country; it's a region. I remember Dwayne Bravo making some interesting comments a few years ago about how his priorities lay first with Trinidad and Tobago, then his IPL side and then the West Indies, for T&T was his nation.

Would you feel as much pride or loyalty representing Oceania or the Southern Hemisphere in a sporting contest if New Zealand couldn't alone compete internationally?

 

[Hurricane]

Would you feel as much pride or loyalty representing Oceania or the Southern Hemisphere in a sporting contest if New Zealand couldn't alone compete internationally?

I would feel little loyalty to Oceania which combines Fiji Samoa, PNG etc. And even less to the Southern Hemisphere which is half the world geographically.
However this may come as a surprise to you given my emotions towards the Australian cricket team - but the concept of the ANZACs is steeped with reverence and tradition in New Zealand. And we are proud we stood, marched, and died with the Australians by our side. And to this day should your shores be threatened we would be the first to respond. So if the combined territory was called something close to the ANZACs then I would affiliate with it. Yet admittedly not as much as NZ.

Look- you raise a good point. Bravo's comment surprises me given the history of the West Indies. I think it would be best if WW or Beamer told us whether they feel pride in the West Indies and give us the common man's view. Certainly from WW's posts he has emotions attached.

 

[Hurricane]

Going to the cynical extreme, your country is just an arbitrary set of fences which you happened to be born within. Why should you feel pride in that?

dulce et decorum est

Why should one love one's parents or family? Answer me that and I'll answer you why you should love your country.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

dulce et decorum est

Why should one love one's parents or family? Answer me that and I'll answer you why you should love your country.

Love is very different to pride, you're arguing something different with that choice of words imo.

I love my family because they're those who've directly cared for me before I could care for myself. I owe my unconditional love to them. My country is a much, much different matter and I feel no obligation to be "proud" of it or love it. Do I love aspects of NZ as a place? Yes. Do I love people in NZ? Yes. But I don't agree with the notion of unconditional pride for my country as a whole, it's just too broad of a banner.

 

[the big bambino]

Yet the implication we should feel no more for a country and the values it represents than we should the cricketing equivalent of a fast food franchise seems comical.

 

[Hurricane]

I love my family because they're those who've directly cared for me before I could care for myself. I owe my unconditional love to them.

On that basis you should owe unconditional love to your country too.

The new zealand govt spent - $13.9Billion on health in 2012/2013 and $13.4Billion on education. Lets just say there are 4 million of us - that is $7,000 per annum per year on each of us. By the time you were twenty the new Zealand government spent $140,000 on you (using these very rough averages). And that is before we consider the cost of other services such as the welfare state in case your parents went on the benefit.
This money was spent on you, using your words, before you could care for yourself financially.

But all of this is so shallow. You don't love your family because they cared for you before you could care for yourself...that is not the reason at all. Or at least I hope it isn't the reason.

Albi - you love your family because they tucked you in at night, and read you stories, and did countless acts of love for you. (Yes I am coming back to love vs pride deliberately i will come to pride at the end)

You should love your country because of the people who have helped you throughout your life and did countless good deeds for you and your family. These people are teachers, nurses, soccer coaches, the neighbourhood community police men who visits schools, they are your community. And your community extends to your country.

Beyond that, you are similar to me Albi. Beyond the fact we went to the same school - our value systems (ignoring generational issues) will be similar. Our opinions are more likely to be the same than two people from different countries. You are connected to all New Zealanders through many commonalities and when a New Zealander succeeds in anything that is an affirmation for our way of life and our values. And that feeling of warmth is called pride.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

On that basis you should owe unconditional love to your country too.

The new zealand govt spent - $13.9Billion on health in 2012/2013 and $13.4Billion on education. Lets just say there are 4 million of us - that is $7,000 per annum per year on each of us. By the time you were twenty the new Zealand government spent $140,000 on you (using these very rough averages). And that is before we consider the cost of other services such as the welfare state in case your parents went on the benefit.
This money was spent on you, using your words, before you could care for yourself financially.

But all of this is so shallow. You don't love your family because they cared for you before you could care for yourself...that is not the reason at all. Or at least I hope it isn't the reason.

Albi - you love your family because they tucked you in at night, and read you stories, and did countless acts of love for you. (Yes I am coming back to love vs pride deliberately i will come to pride at the end)

You should love your country because of the people who have helped you throughout your life and did countless good deeds for you and your family. These people are teachers, nurses, soccer coaches, the neighbourhood community police men who visits schools, they are your community. And your community extends to your country.

Beyond that, you are similar to me Albi. Beyond the fact we went to the same school - our value systems (ignoring generational issues) will be similar. Our opinions are more likely to be the same than two people from different countries. You are connected to all New Zealanders through many commonalities and when a New Zealander succeeds in anything that is an affirmation for our way of life and our values. And that feeling of warmth is called pride.

I'm not going to spend half an hour writing a post listing out the ways I love my family.

I don't love my country the same way I love my family.

 

[Hurricane]

I'm not going to spend half an hour writing a post
.

That was always going to be the problem with this conversation. The topic (why you should or should not have pride in your country) is tough to answer quickly.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

That was always going to be the problem with this conversation. The topic (why you should or should not have pride in your country) is tough to answer quickly.

Indeed. Not to mention, the concept of love is difficult to describe in words and impossible to argue objectively.

 

[Hurricane]

awta

 

[hendrix]

Indeed. Not to mention, the concept of love is difficult to describe in words and impossible to argue objectively.

Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove:
O no! it is an ever-fixed mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wandering bark,
Whose worth’s unknown, although his height be taken
Love’s not Time’s fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle’s compass come:
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
If this be error and upon me proved,
I never writ, nor no man ever loved.

 

[91Jmay]

Your family share your blood and DNA. Your countrymen share a geographical fluke.

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

 

[Esperance]

love ... and hate

is there really a difference between the two?

 

[G.I.Joe]

AWTHurricane re: the 70s. I too long for the good old times when the greatest cricketers of the world swore allegiance to country and national pride, as personified by Roland MacDonald.

Must have been something in the milk in the 70s? We simply don't seem to be producing cricketers with that sort of integrity any more.