***Official*** New Zealand in the West Indies 2014

[WindieWeathers]

In international cricket Shilly has been called twice Hendrix..wasn't Murali called a number of times aswell? i never agreed with Shane being picked ahead of Narine but he seems to have sorted out the action problems now so we'lll see how it goes..He bowled against England, Zim, SA and Australia and wasn't called so it's not like he's been throwing all along. If he doesn't play Benn or Ashley Nurse will step in who are both very effective in home conditions.

Anyway yes Taylor scored the ton after getting dropped twice in that third test iirc? So there was an elemant of luck in that one...he did get it done although to be honest he struggled just as much against Narine as the others did from what i remember...and this time he won't just be able to be defensive against sunil and milk the others because the others will be dangerous aswell.

And lastly we played on pretty much the same kind of wickets when we last toured Bang in 2012 and we managed to win both tests...NZ's lack of quality spin is why they couldn't get the job done and it could well prove to be the case again in the caribbean.

 

[Howsie]

Well for a start Roach says HELLO...secondly what have those two won NZ away from home? aside from one test in SL i don't see much. Narine, Roach, Shilly and Taylor/Holder are more dangerous as a unit than anything that NZ will muster up on this tour in my opinion.

Boult and Southee done very well in NZ..but they were no more devastating than Roach and Narine were when we won in the Caribbean...and soon enough one of them won't fire and what then? If Roach doesn't fire we'll have Narine and Shilly..if Taylor doesn't fire we'll have Roach and Narine..We'll see how the kiwis deal with that.

They've both done plenty overseas, both were excellent in India and England. Shame the rest of the XI didn't play up to snuff. Difference between those two teams and the West Indies though is overall quality. Both Boult and Southee fired in those series but the opposing team had enough quality in the bowling department to overcome it. Don't see that at all in the Windies bowling stocks.

 

[hendrix]

In international cricket Shilly has been called twice Hendrix..wasn't Murali called a number of times aswell? i never agreed with Shane being picked ahead of Narine but he seems to have sorted out the action problems now so we'lll see how it goes..He bowled against England, Zim, SA and Australia and wasn't called so it's not like he's been throwing all along. If he doesn't play Benn or Ashley Nurse will step in who are both very effective in home conditions.

Anyway yes Taylor scored the ton after getting dropped twice in that third test iirc? So there was an elemant of luck in that one...he did get it done although to be honest he struggled just as much against Narine as the others did from what i remember...and this time he won't just be able to be defensive against sunil and milk the others because the others will be dangerous aswell.

And lastly we played on pretty much the same kind of wickets when we last toured Bang in 2012 and we managed to win both tests...NZ's lack of quality spin is why they couldn't get the job done and it could well prove to be the case again in the caribbean.

1. Murali was never, ever found to bowl a delivery beyond 15 degrees. Both Shillingfords stock ball and his doosra were found to be illegal, on two occasions. It's rather convenient that his effectiveness increases the more his action deteriorates.

2. Taylor wasn't dropped in Hamilton - it's the Wellington test in which he was dropped.

 

[WindieWeathers]

They've both done plenty overseas, both were excellent in India and England. Shame the rest of the XI didn't play up to snuff. Difference between those two teams and the West Indies though is overall quality. Both Boult and Southee fired in those series but the opposing team had enough quality in the bowling department to overcome it. Don't see that at all in the Windies bowling stocks.

Well tbh wouldn't they be expected to "fire" in England seeing as it's pretty similar conditions to NZ? also i think you need to look at the England series again...because from what i can tell it was actually Southee who done most of the damage while Boult only had one good innings...Boult also failed in SA and the India series wasn't much better either as he only got FOUR wickets in the two tests..and when you add that to his poor showing in Bang then you start to see a pattern.

But anyway no-doubt the lad has plenty of class and who knows he might just flourish on our tracks...but the evidence so far suggests when it comes performances away from home Southee has stepped up while Boult hasn't really shone yet.

 

[WindieWeathers]

1. Murali was never, ever found to bowl a delivery beyond 15 degrees. Both Shillingfords stock ball and his doosra were found to be illegal, on two occasions. It's rather convenient that his effectiveness increases the more his action deteriorates.

No the first time it was just the doosra that was illegal...not his off-break.

 

[Maximas]

and when you add that to his poor showing in Bang then you start to see a pattern.

That's really unfair, he bowled well without reward.

Personally, I think Boult might struggle for impact in this series, but he's not a bad bowler by any means in the SC

 

[WindieWeathers]

That's really unfair, he bowled well without reward.

Personally, I think Boult might struggle for impact in this series, but he's not a bad bowler by any means in the SC

Of course..the guy just might win the series for them!!.. anything is possible but when folks are saying "Boult and Southee are better than anything WI have" then it's only right have a closer look at his recent away performances to form a better judgement of things.

 

[Howsie]

Well tbh wouldn't they be expected to "fire" in England seeing as it's pretty similar conditions to NZ? also i think you need to look at the England series again...because from what i can tell it was actually Southee who done most of the damage while Boult only had one good innings...Boult also failed in SA and the India series wasn't much better either as he only got FOUR wickets in the two tests..and when you add that to his poor showing in Bang then you start to see a pattern.

But anyway no-doubt the lad has plenty of class and who knows he might just flourish on our tracks...but the evidence so far suggests when it comes performances away from home Southee has stepped up while Boult hasn't really shone yet.

I find actually watching the cricket will give you a better guide as to how a player performed as opposed to just looking at stats. Boult was average in South Africa, and that's about it. Was excellent in India and decent in Bangladesh.

 

[hendrix]

But anyway no-doubt the lad has plenty of class and who knows he might just flourish on our tracks...but the evidence so far suggests when it comes performances away from home Southee has stepped up while Boult hasn't really shone yet.

Well that's fair I suppose given that Southee has been one of the best bowlers in the world away from home, but an away average of 29.5 is pretty respectable.

No the first time it was just the doosra that was illegal...not his off-break.

Nope.

 

[WindieWeathers]

I find actually watching the cricket will give you a better guide as to how a player performed as opposed to just looking at stats. Boult was average in South Africa, and that's about it. Was excellent in India and decent in Bangladesh.

Tbh the only one i didn't watch in full was the bang one because it was boring..i saw the England, SA and India series and though Boult had his moments the bottom line is how many wickets you get as a bowler...and he just didn't deliver in that department.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Hendrix i've only said what Shilly's people have said...they said it was mainly the doosra...hence this comment from the article you posted...

Shillingford had been reported for a suspect action after the first Test in Sri Lanka in November by on-field umpires Steve Davis and Richard Kettleborough, along with third umpire Asad Rauf and fourth umpire Tyron Wijewardene. The umpires' report cited concern over the straightening of Shillingford's arm while he bowled some deliveries.

If it was the off-break surely that would have been all of his deliveries?

 

[hendrix]

Tbh the only one i didn't watch in full was the bang one because it was boring..i saw the England, SA and India series and though Boult had his moments the bottom line is how many wickets you get as a bowler...and he just didn't deliver in that department.

hard to see how 78 wickets in 21 matches is failing to deliver in that department, to be honest. You might as well say that Kemar Roach has failed his whole career.

 

[hendrix]

Hendrix i've only said what Shilly's people have said...they said it was mainly the doosra...hence this comment from the article you posted...



If it was the off-break surely that would have been all of his deliveries?

In any case he was subsequently chucking both deliveries.

I don't get how Windies can select him again without him playing out a full season at the very least. Different action = different bowler.

 

[Howsie]

Tbh the only one i didn't watch in full was the bang one because it was boring..i saw the England, SA and India series and though Boult had his moments the bottom line is how many wickets you get as a bowler...and he just didn't deliver in that department.

Right, so if you watched the Indian series you'd remember the amount of chances that went down off Boult's bowling. Big difference between bowling well and not taking wickets and bowling well and your teammates putting down catches. Southee took the wickets but Boult was our best seamer that series.

He was crap in South Africa, already said that. He took 8 wickets @ 20 in England and had the lowest economy rate in that series. Not his best obvs in terms of wickets taken but that is easily still a pass mark. Probably deserved to take more wickets than that too.

As it is you can cherry pick your stats as much as you like, but the West Indies still don't have a bowler in the same class as either of those two. Make the tracks as dog like as possible, I'm still taking whatever attack has those two in it.

 

[Maximas]

On tracks that will undoubtedly turn quite significantly imma probably gonna go with the superior spin attack, particularly when they are bowling to NZ batsmen, KW and Taylor aside

 

[WindieWeathers]

hard to see how 78 wickets in 21 matches is failing to deliver in that department, to be honest. You might as well say that Kemar Roach has failed his whole career.

I was talking about his recent away performances...which did not deliver a lot of wickets...i wasn't talking about his whole career.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Right, so if you watched the Indian series you'd remember the amount of chances that went down off Boult's bowling. Big difference between bowling well and not taking wickets and bowling well and your teammates putting down catches. Southee took the wickets but Boult was our best seamer that series.

He was crap in South Africa, already said that. He took 8 wickets @ 20 in England and had the lowest economy rate in that series. Not his best obvs in terms of wickets taken but that is easily still a pass mark. Probably deserved to take more wickets than that too.

As it is you can cherry pick your stats as much as you like, but the West Indies still don't have a bowler in the same class as either of those two. Make the tracks as dog like as possible, I'm still taking whatever attack has those two in it.

That just smells of excuses imo...Gabriel had several chances dropped off his bowling in NZ...but i'd be a fool to act like he actually bowled well in that series. Imo good performances away from home are like what Southee done in India or what Roach did in SL..in the cold light of day excuses don't really wash.

And yes by all means take those two, they are good pacers...NZ had them in the second test at sabina while we were forced to carry Sammy in our attack...but i guess that doesn't matter.

 

[Beamer]

My thoughts on some of the posts since I last contributed:

- New Zealand do have the better seam attack, at least on form over the last 2 years. Taylor, Roach and Holder are potentially outstanding, so I share WW's excitement on that front, but I won't be claiming to have a World Class attack until they've played at least a couple of series, stayed fit and bowled like they used to (or in Holder's case like we think he can). Whereas Southee and Boult are test class opening bowlers and have been for a while. Personally, I don't rate Wagner at all and think he's going to be the weakest link of both the seam attacks, but Southee and Boult make up for that anyway.

- We have the far superior spin bowling options, I don;t think any sane person will doubt that. I think Narine has improved so much over the last year and is ready to be a match winning test bowler as well. The wickets he took on an unresponsive pitch in New Zealand are evidence of that IMHO. As for Shilly, I'm conflicted tbh. He keeps getting injured with his new action but takes wickets whenever he is fit. I just think it is too soon to return from such a devastating blow. Having said that, part of me wants him to play so West Indies fans can stick their middle fingers up at the system that is punishing Shilly but allows the likes of Senanayake and Williamson to continue whilst fragrantly pelting.

- The batting is evenly matched as both teams have their problems. I think our middle order should be better than New Zealands according to pedigree (Samuels, Bravo, Shiv, Bravo) but on current form I simply don't think that's true and New Zealand have a much more effective lower order.

- I think it will be an evenly matched series which I'm looking forward to. I think spin might give us a minute edge but I certainly won't be betting on it.

 

[hendrix]

That just smells of excuses imo...Gabriel had several chances dropped off his bowling in NZ...but i'd be a fool to act like he actually bowled well in that series. Imo good performances away from home are like what Southee done in India or what Roach did in SL..in the cold light of day excuses don't really wash.

And yes by all means take those two, they are good pacers...NZ had them in the second test at sabina while we were forced to carry Sammy in our attack...but i guess that doesn't matter.

You keep going on about a series 2 years ago when Boult and Southee weren't even sharing the new ball and continue to ignore the mounting evidence of the last 2 years of test cricket. England, Sri Lanka, India, NZ - take your pick. These were all flat wickets when Boult was bowling.

And yes, you can say a bowler bowled well when he had chances dropped - by actually watching them bowl. Gabriel was utterly dreadful because he couldn't land the ball on the seam and kept dropping short. Boult very rarely does this.

 

[hendrix]

My thoughts on some of the posts since I last contributed:

- New Zealand do have the better seam attack, at least on form over the last 2 years. Taylor, Roach and Holder are potentially outstanding, so I share WW's excitement on that front, but I won't be claiming to have a World Class attack until they've played at least a couple of series, stayed fit and bowled like they used to (or in Holder's case like we think he can). Whereas Southee and Boult are test class opening bowlers and have been for a while. Personally, I don't rate Wagner at all and think he's going to be the weakest link of both the seam attacks, but Southee and Boult make up for that anyway.

- We have the far superior spin bowling options, I don;t think any sane person will doubt that. I think Narine has improved so much over the last year and is ready to be a match winning test bowler as well. The wickets he took on an unresponsive pitch in New Zealand are evidence of that IMHO. As for Shilly, I'm conflicted tbh. He keeps getting injured with his new action but takes wickets whenever he is fit. I just think it is too soon to return from such a devastating blow. Having said that, part of me wants him to play so West Indies fans can stick their middle fingers up at the system that is punishing Shilly but allows the likes of Senanayake and Williamson to continue whilst fragrantly pelting.

- The batting is evenly matched as both teams have their problems. I think our middle order should be better than New Zealands according to pedigree (Samuels, Bravo, Shiv, Bravo) but on current form I simply don't think that's true and New Zealand have a much more effective lower order.

- I think it will be an evenly matched series which I'm looking forward to. I think spin might give us a minute edge but I certainly won't be betting on it.

The one thing I disagree with you about is calling the Hamilton pitch unresponsive. It was without doubt a spinner's wicket. Not a complete paradise, but everyone commented on this fact. Quite a few people were angry with the groundsman.