*Official* English Football Season 2013-14

[grecian]

Maybe focusing on this would be a better start to help the National Team

Well of course, and it's what every sane supporter thinks.

Yet unfortuntely xenophobia seems to reign over all this. See the Euro elections.

 

[GIMH]

Does anyone think B teams are the reason Spain won the World Cup

 

[Uppercut]

They have this idea that the national team's performance at a festival every four years is the ultimate measure of the quality of the entire system, and if another country outperforms England that makes it OK to transplant in their entire league structure with no regard for the footballing culture or the wishes of the fans. It's just so insanely arrogant, this system that evolved over a hundred years, and they think they can successfully redesign it from the top down in the name of an end no one outside the FA even cares that much about.

 

[Uppercut]

Does anyone think B teams are the reason Spain won the World Cup

From twitter:

"Watching England perform like clowns v Algeria in 2010, the reaction in my local was unanimous: we must blame Hereford and Barnet for this"

 

[BoyBrumby]

It's bunk. Balderdash of the very first water.

No real English footy fan will have a bar of it. & I make no apologies for the sanctimony.

Yes, Spain has had an era of unprecedented international success, but to equate its genesis to their league structure is reductive arsewash, Real Madrid famously won five or six European Cups back in the late 50s/early 60s but the Spanish national side remained for decades afterwards, until the latest glorious generation, the great underachievers.

English sides won 7/8 European Cups between 77-84 and our national side didn't even qualify for the 78 WC whereas our sole foreign soil "success" in 1990 was achieved when we'd been banned for six years, so there's a very real case to be made that the structure of club football in this country has very little to do with the success or otherwise of the national side.

 

[Furball]

I don't think it's as horrible an idea as you guys are making out. I completely get why you guys don't want B sides but I strongly doubt a B team made up of under 23 players from a club is going to ever really amount to much more than League Two level at best.

Greg Dykes is correct in saying that there's a problem with developing 18-21 year old footballers in Britain; having an avenue whereby players can play for Chelsea B in the Conference South isn't likely to change that (particularly when players who are good enough, like Lukaku and Courtois, get loaned out anyway).

 

[Furball]

Does anyone think B teams are the reason Spain won the World Cup

I'm going to investigate exactly how much B team football the Spain squad of 2010 played.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

I don't think it's as horrible an idea as you guys are making out. I completely get why you guys don't want B sides but I strongly doubt a B team made up of under 23 players from a club is going to ever really amount to much more than League Two level at best.

Yeah, agree with this: Bayern famously vacuum Germany of all talent and their B team bounce between the third and fourth tiers.

That said, B team matches are horrible both from a crowd and fairness standpoint, and kill the interest in the competitions. Clubs with B teams should be paying the real clubs for the privilege to compete in their competition, at the very least.

 

[Furball]

I'm going to investigate exactly how much B team football the Spain squad of 2010 played.

I'm going for B team and first team football played roughly before the age of 23:

1. Iker Casillas - 26 games for Real Madrid C, 4 Games for Real Madrid B, 189 games for Real Madrid
2. Raul Albiol - 49 games for Valencia B, 19 games for Getafe, 79 games for Valencia
3. Gerard Pique - 33 games for Manchester United, 28 games for Zaragoza, 45 games for Barcelona
4. Carlos Marchena - 76 games for Sevilla, 20 games for Benfica
5. Carles Puyol - 89 games for Barcelona B, 61 games for Barcelona
6. Andres Iniesta - 54 games for Barcelona B, 177 games for Barcelona
7. David Villa - 65 games for Sporting Gijon B, 85 games for Sporting Gijon
8. Xavi - 61 games for Barcelona B, 196 games for Barcelona
9. Fernando Torres - 243 games for Atletico Madrid
10. Cesc Fabregas - 267 games for Arsenal
11. Joan Capdevila - 34 games for Tarrega, 35 games for Espanyol B, 38 games for Espanyol, 40 for Atletico Madrid and 21 for Deportivo La Coruna
12. Victor Valdes - 16 games for Barcelona C, 77 games for Barcelona B, 107 games for Barcelona
13. Juan Mata - 39 games for Real Madrid B, 174 games for Valencia
14. Xabi Alonso - 39 games for Real Sociedad B, 14 games for Eibar, 82 games for Real Sociedad
15. Sergio Ramos - 26 games for Sevilla B, 49 games for Sevilla, 175 games for Real Madrid
16. Sergio Busquets - 1 game for Barcelona C, 32 games for Barcelona B, 139 games for Barcelona
17. Alvaro Arbeloa - 84 games for Real Madrid B, 4 games for Real Madrid
18. Pedro - 70 games for Barcelona C, 55 games for Barcelona B, 68 games for Barcelona
19. Fernando Llorente - 33 games for Basknia, 16 games for Bilbao B, 109 games for Athletic Bilbao
20. Javi Martinez - 32 games for Osasuna B, 198 games for Athletic Bilbao
21. David Silva - 14 games for Valencia B, 35 games for Eibar, 34 for Celta Vigo, 119 games for Valencia
22. Jesus Navas - 33 games for Sevilla B, 125 games for Sevilla
23. Pepe Reina - 3 games for Barcelona C, 41 games for Barcelona B, 30 games for Barcelona, 87 games for Villarreal

 

[Furball]

Does anyone think B teams are the reason Spain won the World Cup

So to come back to this point, they're not the sole reason Spain won the World Cup but I think having B teams playing competitive football where young players of 17, 18 or even 19 can play a season of tough, competitive football certainly won't harm their development. Most of Spain's 2010 squad spent at least a season at B team level.

IMO there comes a point when a player is around about 18 where they need to start getting competitive football or you'll stall their development. Spain's clubs get to do that with their players whilst keeping them under their own coaches. In England you'd need to loan players out and remove them from your influence.

 

[Furball]

Clubs with B teams should be paying the real clubs for the privilege to compete in their competition, at the very least.

On this point, I wouldn't object to a rule that meant that if Arsenal B were playing, say, Luton in the Conference, Luton keep 100% of all gate monies from Arsenal's home game.

 

[Pothas]

Honestly you could tell me that if we did this that we do this that England would win 3 World Cups in a row I would still not want it. If that makes me backward looking or whatever I could not give a ****.

As it happens I don't think it would make any difference whatsoever, the level of football at league two level is simply not a high enough. Have been saying for a long time that young English players that can't get a game in the Premiership should look to move abroad. Or they can do what Adam Forshaw and Jake Bidwell did when they came to us on permanent deals from Everton, I think both will end up as Premiership players.

Also someone like George Saville who we just had on loan this season, he is a talented player and I think he will have a good career but he is never going to make it at Chelsea, having him playing for Chelsea B in league one instead of having him play at Brentford is not going to change that.

 

[Cevno]

On this point, I wouldn't object to a rule that meant that if Arsenal B were playing, say, Luton in the Conference, Luton keep 100% of all gate monies from Arsenal's home game.

To be honest, i can see Arsenal withdrawing from this rather than playing their best youngsters in the Conference or filling their team with acquired players specifically for this like teams in Spain do even at a higher level to fill numbers.

If a 20-23 (even 19) year old is playing still at that level except for some real exceptions or injury cases there is little chance of him being good enough for England/Arsenal. And i doubt Arsenal would wanna want their best talents younger than that like a Crowley looking out of place physically too early and having a bigger chance of getting hurt while being kicked on more dodgy pitches especially if there is squad restriction type rules.

United particularly are pretty careful not to loan players even too early till they are physically ready even to the championship or league 1.

 

[Pothas]

Greg Dyke can **** off as well, he was our chairman for a good few year but he clearly never gave a ****.

 

[Cevno]

Yeah, agree with this: Bayern famously vacuum Germany of all talent and their B team bounce between the third and fourth tiers.

That said, B team matches are horrible both from a crowd and fairness standpoint, and kill the interest in the competitions. Clubs with B teams should be paying the real clubs for the privilege to compete in their competition, at the very least.

That's the thing though in Germany and Spain lesser number of teams hoard most of the talent at younger ages. In England relatively it is more spread out at that level generally.

That familiarity the Barca players had coming through together playing from younger ages at La Masia certainly helped the Spanish team to a large degree in terms of set philosophy as well but not sure how it could work in England without distorting the market.

Also, this Limiting Non EU rule and increasing Home grown quota will put English clubs at a real competitive disadvantage compared to other leagues. Not sure it will help the real quality English players that much either.


All these things smack of just doing something for the sake of doing something. Also, some may disagree but the England National team in terms of upcoming talent is not as doom and gloom as people make out frankly even compared to others. What they end up lacking is a set philosophy at national level and also players wanting to play for England as much as other country players want to play for their national Teams.

And if they want to improve the quality further then need to look at more basic things at a younger age like academies, coaching, attracting players from other sports to produce larger number of quality players.

 

[GIMH]

Pothas has nailed if, even if it has footballing merits for the national team (and there is a ton of literature out there explaining how it's failed in Germany) club football is far more important. My team does not exist as some facilitator to England winning the world cup

And this would pretty much drive a heap of conference clubs out of business

The non EU thing is a farce too. So because premier league teams don't play enough Englishmen, let's make sure Ian Goodison and his 410 games for Tranmere are prevented from ever happening again. Because, you know, when I was watching us stumble through the last WC all I could think was 'if only there were fewer foreigners in the lower leagues then we would stand a better chance'

It's a plan from people out of touch with the lower leagues and out of touch with the fans. It stinks.

 

[Furball]

United particularly are pretty careful not to loan players even too early till they are physically ready even to the championship or league 1.

Perhaps Manchester United should rethink their policy given their utter failure to produce any talent of note in the last 20 years then. The idea that Man Utd are this wonderful club with a great track record of producing young players is a myth and complete bollocks.

 

[Uppercut]

The only reason Spain>England is that it counts its separatist regions as part of Spain, whereas Scotland etc have their own teams. A fairer comparison might be Spain minus Basque and Catalonia. Or a hypothetical England that had Bale, Giggs, Ramsey, Dalglish, Hansen etc.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Hansen still being better than Phil Jones, etc.

 

[Furball]

The only reason Spain>England is that it counts its separatist regions as part of Spain, whereas Scotland etc have their own teams. A fairer comparison might be Spain minus Basque and Catalonia. Or a hypothetical England that had Bale, Giggs, Ramsey, Dalglish, Hansen etc.

A team made up of players from all parts of the British Isles exists, it's called the Republic of Ireland.