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Your top ten TEST bowlers of ALL-TIME

Agent Nationaux

International Coach
A lot of these aren't amazing bowlers and were in their teams for their all-round ability.

Others either haven't played enough tests or played them a very long time ago (I can't comment on those since no one alive has seen them play).
 

Eds

International Debutant
A lot of these aren't amazing bowlers and were in their teams for their all-round ability.
Well.. yeah.. of course a team's fifth bowler is going to need to be able to bat. Their job isn't just to bowl -- they're the fifth best bowler in the side. You asked for amazing fifth bowlers and I gave you lots of examples.

But it's still an important role and it's one that's vital to a team; as illustrated by the balance issues South Africa are currently going through after the loss of Kallis.
 
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Agent Nationaux

International Coach
I wasn't the one boasting on a number 8th batsman like you were about Sobers being a fifth bowler. And most test teams don't even use a fifth bowler. Why would you if you can use your 3 quicks and a spinner or 4 quicks.
 

Agent Nationaux

International Coach
Would Sobers even be a good bowler today considering the number of flat pitches. And how are the pitches in West Indies for spinners these days? They haven't exactly produced a decent spinner in ages?
 

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International Debutant
And most test teams don't even use a fifth bowler. Why would you if you can use your 3 quicks and a spinner or 4 quicks.
This is just flat our not true. The only teams who haven't used a fifth bowler with any sort of regularity over the past few years are India and England - and that's down to a shortage of options more than anything. The likes of KP, Trott, Root, Woakes, Kohli, Rohit Sharma, etc. have all been used as cover.

If you don't see the need for a fifth bowler then there's really no point continuing this conversation.

And yes, Sobers would be a good bowler these days...
 

Agent Nationaux

International Coach
If you can take 20 wickets without a fifth bowler what's the point because it would be better to slot in a proper batsman instead of a part timer.

Obviously this isn't the case for Sobers and Kallis but my original point was if you are going to say how great Sobers is, adding his quality as the best fifth bowler (which isn't true anyway) isn't really adding much. I mean averaging 34 with a strike rate of 91 isn't impressive.

It's that same thing with DeVillers. Someone pointed out how amazing he was in cricket, rugby, hockey, etc but most of the stuff wasn't really adding anything.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Would Sobers even be a good bowler today considering the number of flat pitches. And how are the pitches in West Indies for spinners these days? They haven't exactly produced a decent spinner in ages?
Not that any of this deserves an answer, but. The pitches in the '50's especially in the W.I were far flatter than they are today. Secondly the pitches in the W.I today especially in Guyana, Barbados and Trinidad are slow and extremely spin friendly and that is evidenced that the top bowlers in the regional competition in the recent past (with the exception for Cummins last year) has been mainly spinners.
Just a btw.
 

Eds

International Debutant
If you can take 20 wickets without a fifth bowler what's the point
And how many times throughout history have we seen even the great sides struggle to do this? When was the last time you saw a moderate test team do well with a four-man attack?

If you were selecting an ATG side, perhaps Sobers' bowling would be fairly irrelevant, but in terms of adding something to a test side, his bowling would be vital. He bowled nearly 22k balls in Test matches ffs - that shows just how vital he was.

This is just a bizarre argument really.
 

kyear2

International Coach
If you can take 20 wickets without a fifth bowler what's the point because it would be better to slot in a proper batsman instead of a part timer.

Obviously this isn't the case for Sobers and Kallis but my original point was if you are going to say how great Sobers is, adding his quality as the best fifth bowler (which isn't true anyway) isn't really adding much. I mean averaging 34 with a strike rate of 91 isn't impressive.

It's that same thing with DeVillers. Someone pointed out how amazing he was in cricket, rugby, hockey, etc but most of the stuff wasn't really adding anything.
But that's what makes Sobers, Kallis, Worrell, Hammond, Chappell, McCabe etc so special and valuable. There is no need to sacrifice your batting at all and all of them except for Worrell (and not so sure about McCabe's quality) were superb slippers as well, even more added value.

But yea, wouldn't necessarily want to sacrifice batting quality for a 5th bowler, likewise bowling quality for a 8th batsman.
 
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Agent Nationaux

International Coach
Not that any of this deserves an answer, but. The pitches in the '50's especially in the W.I were far flatter than they are today. Secondly the pitches in the W.I today especially in Guyana, Barbados and Trinidad are slow and extremely spin friendly and that is evidenced that the top bowlers in the regional competition in the recent past (with the exception for Cummins last year) has been mainly spinners.
Just a btw.
So who are the spin demons that you have produced recently.
 

Agent Nationaux

International Coach
Did Sobers have the same quality bowling around him that Kallis has had? Doing what Kallis has with the ball despite competing against the likes of Donald, Pollock, Steyn, Morkel and Philander is impressive.
 

the big bambino

Cricketer Of The Year
If you can take 20 wickets without a fifth bowler what's the point ...
I've just checked R. Hadlee's record. He struck at 5 wpm. Hadlee was a great bowler as we all know. Such bowlers are rare. More common are class bowlers at test level who would reasonably average 4 to 4.5 wickets a match. Do the math. A team of 4 would take around 2 - 4 fewer on average than the required 20. You need a 5th bowler to mop up the rest so your team is consistently capable of taking all 20 wickets. Quite often teams still fall short on a wpm basis even with a 5th bowler. I would argue you even need a 6th and that person should be a batsmen like Clarke who can take wickets in tests, before a side can feel confident they have the ammo to consistently bowl out teams.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Name one amazing 5th bowler.
The point of 5th bowlers is that they don't have to be "amazing", but they have to be able to bat top 6/7. Therefore, their bowling is a bonus, and the better it is the stronger a team can be with bowling rotations.

There are plenty of test teams throughout history who would choose Sobers as one of their main four bowlers.
 

Agent Nationaux

International Coach
Would anyone choose Sobers if he couldn't bat?

I'm not questioning his greatness. All I was saying was that Kyear lists all the great things about Sobers and then finishes off with he's also the greatest 5th bowler. I mean would you say the same thing for the greatest no 9 batsmen ever? And Sobers isn't even the greatest 5th bowler anyway, so that's like saying, oh he's also the 3rd greatest 5th bowler. Does that seem impressive to you or anyone else?
 

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