England post ashes 13/14

[howardj]

South Africa didn't necessarily play bad cricket, though, they just lost a few key moments and were blown away by Johnson (with help from others ofc). This series has felt very different.

I take your point on board - perhaps I am overestimating the mental letdown for SA back in 2009 and therefore the analogy is slightly strained. However, in relation to this Ashes series, sub par performances from otherwise world class players such as Anderson, Swan, Cook, Bell, Prior and Trott (who, a few mere months earlier, were part of a 3-0 Ashes winning team) to me indicate that there was a massive mental letdown. A point which Pietersen confirmed on Saturday night in his interview with Sky UK. I think sometimes as viewers we underestimate the toll that a Grand Final or a massive series can take on players...and how "up" they get for it...and then how hard it is to replicate that a short time later, especially when you were successful.

Again, this is not to take away from the outstanding performances of Johnson, Warner, Clarke and Haddin this Summer.

 

[Prince EWS]

South Africa didn't necessarily play bad cricket, though, they just lost a few key moments and were blown away by Johnson (with help from others ofc). This series has felt very different.

Yeah exactly. I think what howardj is saying is more or less spot on for this series, but the two Aus/RSA series were just a case of two pretty evenly matched teams playing two series that ended with different results. Both teams played some really good cricket in both series.

 

[Adders]

Excellent posts from howardj and totally agree with all points. This back to back Ashes series is something that has never been done before and has been a massive ask of both teams, Australia regrouped and refocused for the return leg, England didn't and paid the ultimate price.

From Clarkes comments I don't think he is getting too carried away with the one sidedness of this series and realises there is still a lot of work to do to achieve his goal of taking Australia back to No1. England on the other hand have not turned into a **** cricket team overnight.......we've just been massively bitch slapped and it is how we respond going forward that will determine where we are in the pecking order in a couple of years time.

Good signs for the Aussies, yes........concerns for England, absolutely, but as howardj said neither side should read too much into the last 6 months.

 

[wpdavid]

My preference at this stage.....

Cook
Compton
???
KP
Bell
Root
Prior (backing him to come good, but he must show something for Sussex first, otherwise I'll go with Butler)
Stokes
Broad
Anderson
Finn/Onions (I want Finn in there as I still believe he's the future leader of the attack and he needs a decent run. If he isn't showing enough then Onions in the short term)

Now I need some help fixing this team.......

Obviously I need a spinner in there, and I'd also like to see us get back to 5 bowlers, which is why I assume grecian has got Patel in there? Just haven't got enough faith in him as our front line spinner (or No 6 bat tbf) I know we are going have a step down from Swann but at this stage surely Monty is our only viable choice?? And he makes it ****ing hard to get a balanced side, slip him into the team above somewhere and you have Prior at 6 and Stokes at 7 which is a spot too high for them and a very weak tail.

Got Root at 6 which is my preference for him but I have no strong objections to persevering with him at 3 if it helps with the balance and I also can't offer up an alternative for No3. The bolded are locks.

Anyone got any suggestions on tweaking this template for a side??

I don't think you need a spinner there, certainly not at the start of the summer. Facing SL and India in English conditions usually makes our finger spinners redundant, so why bother? Four quicks would be a better bet, which has the handy benefit of having a good look at more of them plus some breathing space if one of them is firing duds. That might change midway through the India series, by when we'll have some idea if Borthwick has kicked on enough to be considered. before then, I'd plump for Anderson, Broad, Onions and Finn.

As for the keeper, the most recent test has shown that we can't afford to pick one who's a part-timer. If Buttler's doing the job full time, then maybe he's the answer. Otherwise, I'd pick Davies, even if he's only a short term solution. Not all the newcomers have to be under 25.

I'm OK with Compton having another go but I'd also be OK with Robson being thrown in. Bell can man up and bat at 3. Root can start at 5 and probably Stokes at 6, although I suspect that his ton might have been one of those things that happens occasionally rather than confirmation that he's a genuine top 6 batter. The other option is your call to play him as one of the four quicks, but I don't think he's a good enough bowler to be one of a four man attack.

None of which will make us world beaters over night, but there's enough new blood to hint at a way forward.

Changing the overall attitude will also help. For all the denials, there's been too many instances of them believing the hype. I still think Ovalgate smacked of arrogance, and I still don't believe that none of the side had any involvement in the fake KP Twitter account. Broad turning up brandishing the local rag at the end of Brisbane day 1 was also sheer stupidity. Maybe Cook hasn't been strong enough with the established 'stars' to effectively challenge them, although this tour should do something to change that. Oh, and I wouldn't bother with announcing an England 'cricketer of the year' in future.

EDIT
Just seen that Scaly beat me to it regarding a spinner not being needed against an Asian team in England. Sorry mate, I'll try and read your stuff properly next time.

 

[wpdavid]

Looking at our current top 7, I see 5 players with a question mark against them for 2015

Rogers - nothing more than a stop gap at his age
Watson - perennial under-achiever with the bat and only worthy of a place as an all-rounder
TPC - work in progress
Bailey - jury out at best
Haddin - old

Bearing in mind that there are 2.5 Australian fc seasons to be played until the next Ashes squad is named, youngish guys that I have seen and think have talent to go further include:

Silk
Head
Maddinson
Lynn
Burns
Wade (as a bat only unless he learns how to keep)
Mitch Marsh (batting all-rounder)
Faulkner (bowling all-rounder)
Nevill (wkb)
Whiteman (wkb)
Pierson (wkb)

However, Hughes is still the elephant in the room

The guy continues to score mountains of runs at fc level and will inevitably be given another go at test level.

And btw, for all those doubters, his test record is still better than Steve Waugh's was at the same age

You don't need to twist my arm too much about Hughes. I always said your guys were mad to drop him after 2 tests in 2009, and he's been playing catch up ever since. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him back at some stage, probably when Rogers reaches for his pipe and slippers.

As FJ said, you only have one and a half seasons before the next Ashes, not two and a half. And presumably there won't be changes immediately after this series. So there won't be a huge amount of time to bed in any newcomers. And then it's a question of how good the newbies are, which I have absolutely no idea about. I do know that you'll miss Haddin though.

 

[grecian]

I don't think you need a spinner there, certainly not at the start of the summer. Facing SL and India in English conditions usually makes our finger spinners redundant, so why bother? Four quicks would be a better bet, which has the handy benefit of having a good look at more of them plus some breathing space if one of them is firing duds. That might change midway through the India series, by when we'll have some idea if Borthwick has kicked on enough to be considered. before then, I'd plump for Anderson, Broad, Onions and Finn.

As for the keeper, the most recent test has shown that we can't afford to pick one who's a part-timer. If Buttler's doing the job full time, then maybe he's the answer. Otherwise, I'd pick Davies, even if he's only a short term solution. Not all the newcomers have to be under 25.

I'm OK with Compton having another go but I'd also be OK with Robson being thrown in. Bell can man up and bat at 3. Root can start at 5 and probably Stokes at 6, although I suspect that his ton might have been one of those things that happens occasionally rather than confirmation that he's a genuine top 6 batter. The other option is your call to play him as one of the four quicks, but I don't think he's a good enough bowler to be one of a four man attack.

None of which will make us world beaters over night, but there's enough new blood to hint at a way forward.

Changing the overall attitude will also help. For all the denials, there's been too many instances of them believing the hype. I still think Ovalgate smacked of arrogance, and I still don't believe that none of the side had any involvement in the fake KP Twitter account. Broad turning up brandishing the local rag at the end of Brisbane day 1 was also sheer stupidity. Maybe Cook hasn't been strong enough with the established 'stars' to effectively challenge them, although this tour should do something to change that. Oh, and I wouldn't bother with announcing an England 'cricketer of the year' in future.

EDIT
Just seen that Scaly beat me to it regarding a spinner not being needed against an Asian team in England. Sorry mate, I'll try and read your stuff properly next time.

*cough*, I think someone else may have mentioned it too

 

[wpdavid]

*cough*, I think someone else may have mentioned it too

You know I never read your stuff at all mate.

Happy new year btw.

 

[grecian]

You know I never read your stuff at all mate.

Happy new year btw.

It's a good policy for all at Cricketweb TBF.

Happy New Year to you, too

 

[Prince EWS]

While I agree that England don't necessarily need a spinner at home - for some venues against Asian sides at least - Stokes complicates things a bit and England actually is a pretty decent place to bowl spin right now overall. I certainly don't think picking five seamers is a good idea so if England are going to leave Panesar out then it should be for a batsman IMO.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

I think Panesar will get a chance this summer, there basically isn't anyone else around so he gets the gig and overall his record is decent anyway and he has shown that he can win matches in the past if conditions are right. I think Stokes deserves a run at 6, he is no worse with the bat than Morgan, Bopara, Bairstow etc... and gives you the extra bowling option which in time may develop into being good enough to be part of a 3 man pace attack anyway.

Just a bit alarming the way Flower has come out today and said what he has, does he intend to stay on or is he hinting at a different role which keeps him at home?

 

[Scaly piscine]

I think Panesar will get a chance this summer, there basically isn't anyone else around so he gets the gig and overall his record is decent anyway and he has shown that he can win matches in the past if conditions are right. I think Stokes deserves a run at 6, he is no worse with the bat than Morgan, Bopara, Bairstow etc... and gives you the extra bowling option which in time may develop into being good enough to be part of a 3 man pace attack anyway.

Just a bit alarming the way Flower has come out today and said what he has, does he intend to stay on or is he hinting at a different role which keeps him at home?

England have to move away from picking players by 'default' based on past glories. Donkey hasn't been that good for England and his batting and fielding is absolutely abysmal. He's also been atrocious this year in more ways than one.

His is one of many rubbish touring squad selections, it isn't on merit and sends out the wrong message.

 

[grecian]

While I agree that England don't necessarily need a spinner at home - for some venues against Asian sides at least - Stokes complicates things a bit and England actually is a pretty decent place to bowl spin right now overall. I certainly don't think picking five seamers is a good idea so if England are going to leave Panesar out then it should be for a batsman IMO.

I think most are saying he should bat at 7, preferrably a batsman who can twirl it, and take some ****ing catches in the slips, should bat in the top 6..

I'm serious on the last point that it should almost be a deciding factor, our catching has been appalling for a while now, I can't say I know who the best slippers in County Cricket are, and no I'm not saying we should pick Troughton and Rikki C****e in the gully, but it would be nice to have someone who could go a test in there without making a monumental ****-up.

 

[theegyptian]

I think most are saying he should bat at 7, preferrably a batsman who can twirl it, and take some ****ing catches in the slips, should bat in the top 6..

I'm serious on the last point that it should almost be a deciding factor, our catching has been appalling for a while now, I can't say I know who the best slippers in County Cricket are, and no I'm not saying we should pick Troughton and Rikki C****e in the gully, but it would be nice to have someone who could go a test in there without making a monumental ****-up.

Liam Dawson is one of the best slippers and qualifies as a top order bat and spin bowler. But he isn''t good enough and doesn't have a great attitude imo. He's also limited and a defensive batsman which isn't exactly what England want. Borthwick I think is a second slip for durham.

Clarke as you suggest is an excellent slipper. Jordan is a safe pair of hands and very athletic in the slips but would be bowling. Ali is a 1st slip for Worcestershire but drops quite a few. I doubt if he did come into the England team he'd go into the slips

Chopra is a 1st slip but does drop the occasional one. Robson I think fields in the slips but I don't follow middlesex enough to know how good he is.

I'm hoping that James Vince comes through over the next couple of years. Has a decent offensive batting game. Need some contrasting players. Fields 2nd or 3rd slip iirc.

England just have to work with what they've got and get better. Someone like Robson or Chopra may come in and come into the slips but I'm not convinced of either of their batting capabilities at present.

With Trott and Swann going they've basically lost two slip catchers even if Trott didn't slip for England.

 

[Pothas]

Where did you get that impression about Dawson's attitude? Not something that I have ever heard before. Grecian was pretty much describing him there but yeah he is way off being good enough, is only just about starting to prove his worth as a division two player.

 

[grecian]

Liam Dawson is one of the best slippers and qualifies as a top order bat and spin bowler. But he isn''t good enough and doesn't have a great attitude imo. He's also limited and a defensive batsman which isn't exactly what England want. Borthwick I think is a second slip for durham.

Clarke as you suggest is an excellent slipper. Jordan is a safe pair of hands and very athletic in the slips but would be bowling. Ali is a 1st slip for Worcestershire but drops quite a few. I doubt if he did come into the England team he'd go into the slips

Chopra is a 1st slip but does drop the occasional one. Robson I think fields in the slips but I don't follow middlesex enough to know how good he is.

I'm hoping that James Vince comes through over the next couple of years. Has a decent offensive batting game. Need some contrasting players. Fields 2nd or 3rd slip iirc.

England just have to work with what they've got and get better. Someone like Robson or Chopra may come in and come into the slips but I'm not convinced of either of their batting capabilities at present.

With Trott and Swann going they've basically lost two slip catchers even if Trott didn't slip for England.

Yeah good summary, forgot about Jordan, saw him take a few good ones on Sky.

Hildreth is of course a slip-fielder.

Hasn't Vince done a bit of bowling recently. Seam-up though, but can he vary it, unusually in this day and age seems to bowl mostly in Championship cricket.

 

[Pothas]

Yeah blowed a bit last year, not actually that slow either. Nothing to effect test selection, we are talking Trott sort of role at best at this stage.

 

[theegyptian]

Where did you get that impression about Dawson's attitude? Not something that I have ever heard before. Grecian was pretty much describing him there but yeah he is way off being good enough, is only just about starting to prove his worth as a division two player.

I guess it was mostly formed from following him on twitter. Someone who will enjoy and be a good county cricketer but never really work hard enough or have the talent to be a test cricketer. Returning from ZImbabwe didn't exactly reflect well upon him either although he was young. Not selected for any England performance squad is a little surprising as he is one of the more experienced youngsters in the county game and has done reasonably well. Who knows? Just my snap judgement. Hopefully he does have the hunger to improve because there are some good qualities there to work with.

Thinking about it Jordan could be the one to get a push next summer into the England team. Bowls decent pace, bats a bit, fields well. Although from the bowling mechanics guys it sounds like his action isn't great and he was pushing a load into the aussies batsmens pads last summer.

 

[Cabinet96]

I really do think the selectors do need to look at this as a turning-point, and really look for early-season form, and let it be known if you hold your hand up you'll be considered, no matter age (old or young), or previous.

The only problem with this theory is the Internationals start so early, and may well get the first few weeks mostly rained out. Yet still I like the principle.

Yet I think we can all say there's probably only about 6 certainties, which is really amazing considering how settled we've been for years.

I would have no problem whatsoever with going for Foster or Read as 'keeper, if they have a decent start to the season, and none of the more obvious candidates do.

Schedule of the Sri Lankan series is flipped this summer remember, though. The first test isn't till the 12th of June.

 

[grecian]

Schedule of the Sri Lankan series is flipped this summer remember, though. The first test isn't till the 12th of June.

Ahh is it, good then, does give them a bit of time

Edit: Just looked at our fixture, WTF is that stupid Windies tour about?

Anyway, first four test matches are Lords, Headingley, Lords, Trent Bridge. Have to say even more happy if we don't play a spinner. Monty has been good at Old Trafford and The Oval, and I'd have probably giving him a shot there. All the spinning pitches are near the end of the year, so to start, I'm even more convinced no specialist spinner.

 

[Furball]

Edit: Just looked at our fixture, WTF is that stupid Windies tour about?

IIRC we've split that tour. We back to play the Tests after the World Cup.