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***Official*** West Indies in New Zealand 2013/14

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
Ryder has to come back because he's objectively a better batsman than McCullum. I don't think anyone in NZ - including Hesson and McCullum - would deny that.
I am only making this post to be colourful...

You may be surprised by what McHesson thinks. a) they think Southee should be batting at 8 b) 6 months ago Hesson would not say that Ross was better than baz. He grudgingly conceded Ross was more consistent but only when the journalist pressed him.

If it comes to a choice between Ryder or baz for any batting position - baz will get the nod.
 

CharlesLara

U19 12th Man
I get that feeling he is all about confidence as well. thanks for your insights here,
You just have to look at leggies gone by, with the exception of Warne (suprise surprise) and to some extent Kumble, who were both masters of consistency and accuracy, (Warne is just a legspin god, Kumble moreso HAD to be accurate to be effective, considering he relied more on consistent wicket to wicket bowling with changes of pace and making it go both ways that out and out drift and turn), the likes of your Macgill's, Kaneria's, and more recently, no better example than Imran Tahir.

Put it this way, there a NO established leggies going around cricket (correct me if I'm wrong here anybody) because the game has shifted to a point where run restriction is a huge element of a spinners game and with the sheer volume of limited overs cricket going around that not gonna change anytime soon. My point I guess, is that leggies are seen as a liability, hell at times we can be because it can go horribly wrong. So when a leggie comes onto the scene, and has to bowl, with limited opportunities the pressure to make your mark is immediately thrust upon you, look at how excited everyone got over Ish and hailing him this that and the third. With that limited opportunity every spell seems to become make or break or "gotta make the most of these overs" and that just starts to ruin your confidence.

Getting off topic here though, any thought on Ryder AND Anderson both playing with Anderson as a third seamer, I know it seems a long shot provided that he prob doesnt need that workload but down the line maybe Anderson to play a Carins type role?
 

CharlesLara

U19 12th Man
why should an opener be punished for this?

and if ryder comes back in cbf mode i wouldnt want him in the team anyway
Yep, the other side of the argument people like to forget because they think Ryder is the answer to everything. Truth is, this is a huge part of what comes with him. Is he a better bat than most in the country, arguably (outside of RT, KW, and IMO BJ, who else seems to have to ability to even show any bottle, let alone make runs), but the flipside is that NZ need stability in their batting which they slowly are getting, and much as I hate McHesson. Jesse is an enigma, but to counter that argument there **** all runs being made at the top for NZ currently, but I prefer the stability of Raval (Auckland bias) for eg.
 

Flem274*

123/5
I think Anderson, if he achieves his potential, will be quite a balanced allrounder but at this stage I wouldn't have him as the third seamer yet.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
Getting off topic here though, any thought on Ryder AND Anderson both playing with Anderson as a third seamer, I know it seems a long shot provided that he prob doesnt need that workload but down the line maybe Anderson to play a Carins type role?
Nope. Not there yet unless we're playing 2 spinners.

And it's unlikely he'll ever get there, IMO. Too many injuries. He's great value batting in the top 6 and as 4th seamer, and that's what he should continue to aim for, IMO.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
Yep, the other side of the argument people like to forget because they think Ryder is the answer to everything. Truth is, this is a huge part of what comes with him. Is he a better bat than most in the country, arguably (outside of RT, KW, and IMO BJ, who else seems to have to ability to even show any bottle, let alone make runs), but the flipside is that NZ need stability in their batting which they slowly are getting, and much as I hate McHesson. Jesse is an enigma, but to counter that argument there **** all runs being made at the top for NZ currently, but I prefer the stability of Raval (Auckland bias) for eg.
He sometimes has been in CBF mode but a couple of recent innings have demonstrated that he does want to knuckle down and play proper test cricket.

The good thing about Ryder is that he's never seemed to be a guy chasing a paycheck; you know if he's coming back it's because he really wants to, not because he wants an IPL contract.
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
why should an opener be punished for this?

and if ryder comes back in cbf mode i wouldnt want him in the team anyway
The raw stats from his innings last saturday would seem to suggest that he's taking the game seriously again.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
The raw stats from his innings last saturday would seem to suggest that he's taking the game seriously again.
he said the same in an interview. He preferred the knock over his two recent hundreds because he felt that it was more a proper, test style innings.
 

Flem274*

123/5
I guess in a hypothetical world where Ryder is in top nick and not treating it like a lark it comes down to whether his batting outweighs Anderson's all round skills, bearing in mind we don't know who will be taking the spin bowling duties against India yet and India would love to see KW operating as the 5th bowler. McCullum provides an awkward situation where he is the best available skipper but isn't better than a hypothetical Ryder or one of the best openers, but is definitely better than cbf Ryder.

I reckon a ton composed of singles (exaggerating a lot here) would do Ryder''s stocks in the eyes of Hesson a world of good.
 

Flem274*

123/5
The raw stats from his innings last saturday would seem to suggest that he's taking the game seriously again.
he said the same in an interview. He preferred the knock over his two recent hundreds because he felt that it was more a proper, test style innings.
Well then, Anderson or Ryder?

If Sodhi is the spinner, dunno myself, but then Dan is still and injury risk and his batting makes up for the gap between Ryder and Anderson.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
Even when he's in CBF mode, the man is averaging 80 already this season, destroying bowlers we know to be good domestic performers - Bennett, Henry et al.

He's the second best batsman in NZ. There's simply no way he doesn't make the side for the India test series. No justification whatsoever.
 

Days of Grace

International Captain
Wagner being **** and Corey getting valuable wickets has definitely thrown the cat amongst the pigeons for McHesson, imo.

Ryder has to play but Baz is undroppable and Anderson is proving to be very valuable.

I too wouldn't want Anderson as the third seamer. I believe that if someone is performing their role well, then they should stay in that role. I hope we win this match so we can perhaps try out Milne in Hamilton.



We could just prepare some green strips and take on India without a specialist spinner. They would destroy Sodhi anyway and there is no one else playing domestix that is worth their place in the team apart from Vettori:

Fulton
Rutherford
Williamson (5)
Taylor
Ryder (6)
McCullum
Anderson (4)
Watling (wk)
Southee (2)
Boult (1)
Milne (3)
 
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Prince EWS

Global Moderator
There is no way Watling should be at eight given how he bats. You risk him getting stranded enough as it is; if you played that composition then Anderson would have to bat eight and live or (likely) die based on his bowling.
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
Yeah Anderson is dangerous on a pitch like this where there's plenty of life in the wicket. But on most surfaces he'll be strictly part time at this stage.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
I love that lineup but yeah, Watling would have to bat 7.

Would be great to see that lineup happen for the India tests.
 

Flem274*

123/5
I don't. It has three specialist bowlers ffs, and preparing green pitches negates the one advantage we still have: the ability to handle bounce better than them (though India may prove otherwise in South Africa). Green pitches just make everything a lottery and give even complete shunts like Ishant, God forbid he plays from an Indian and cricket perspective, a chance to run through us as quickly as we run through them. We need to trust our batsmen to handle relatively normal home conditions (get rid of the slow flat dogs) better than the oppo.

edit: unless Wagner turns this around I would definitely play Milne next week unless Auckland belt him. He is the best of the bowlers suited to the third seamers spot, and yes Hendo I'm including Bennett :p. Milne gets the bounce but is also a tick faster and while not essential for his initial role, swings the ball which makes him really adaptable. He is a complete bowler where Bennett is *only* a bang it in at decent pace merchant.
 
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straw man

Hall of Fame Member
I am very strongly against bringing Anderson into the test team as a batting allrounder and then telling him after four or five tests that he's now a bowling allrounder - way to screw with his head. And that's aside from injury concerns with his bowling.

At this stage I would lean towards getting Ryder to wait a bit longer. Prove he's capable of returning to NZ duties in ODIs and chances are McCullum or Anderson will get injured at some point anyway, opening up a place in the test side.
 

straw man

Hall of Fame Member
Right now I would really just like to know who the third best test seamer in New Zealand is.

They were talking on the radio earlier, quite diplomatically when Wagner was bowling rubbish, that maybe he wasn't the best option in these conditions. Suggested Doug Bracewell as an alternative. I see the logic - that his seam position is better and as a result he makes better use of the new ball than Wagner - and I would love it to be the case that he'd be a better choice... but you just know he would have turned up today, seen a little bounce and carry and bowled short filth.

Quite frankly right now we might as well get Gillespie to show up in his 'little outies' mode as at least it wouldn't bleed runs.
 
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ohnoitsyou

International Regular
I've said this many time before for team balance McCullum needs to move back to opening. Bhuvi will turn Fulton into a walking wicket and Rutherford needs to smarten up.

McCullum
Rutherford (even though Fulton has put out better numbers)
KW
Taylor
Ryder
Watling
Anderson
Vettori
Southee
Milne
Boult

I realise this will never happen, but i would say this team wouldcompete against any in the world. Anderson could be given a decent portion of the bowling which would enable Milne to be used in short sharp bursts.
 

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