*Official* Second Test at Lord's

[91Jmay]

...or to one.

No facts/stats or anything relevant to add. What a bad no mark you are.

 

[91Jmay]

Swann is not in Ajmal's tier. Ajmal is a tier below Warne/Murali and would be going down as an ATG if he hadn't blossomed so late in his career (I don't know whether that's Pakistani selectorial incompetence or just a massive maturing).

Herath basically didn't play until 2011. And his tests before that may as well be written off in the same way we write off Ajmal and Swann's early career non-starts. All three are significantly better bowlers than they were 10 years ago. It hasn't taken us very long to start rating Ajmal. I bet if you go back to 2010 you will see plenty of posts dismissing his abilities. The only reason for why he's so highly rated now is because of one very high profile series against the English in the UAE that was the first to reveal England's major incompetencies against slow bowling

Herath simply hasn't had that much television exposure and his wickets have come after England and Australia's weaknesses have already become apparent. I bet that he would have been just as effective as Ajmal in the UAE and the effect would have been just as shocking to the English.

Aside from all this, I'm not saying that Herath is as good as Ajmal, but I do think that he's significantly better than Swann. I still think Swann is a good bowler, but watching Herath bowl is simply delightful. He has better control, better variety, and better flight than Swann.

Thats fair enough, but at some point the eye test has to be borne out by the numbers and Herath's are inferior to Swann. I don't think he would have been as effective in the UAE, because he lacked the variation that killed England. Swann is a lot better then Herath, nothing you have come up with has convinced me otherwise. I also know that if Swann got to bowl as many overs as Herath does in helpful conditions he'd have better numbers to.

Also Herath didn't play until 2011 is false. He played consistently from 2009 onwards, he just didn't play very well. Swann has been better than Herath from ball 1 of his Test career, and still is.

 

[Fusion]

What are you on about you prick. I said that taking test wickets at home on pitches prepared for you is not as impressive as going abroad and taking wickets which he hasn't done in any great number yet.

Aha ok sweetheart. What's a commission flat? You have to speak English to me I don't understand your shackel dragger slang.

Now lets do some maths (I'm worried about you following this though in truth) Swann has 107 of his 235 wickets in England or 45.53%. Herath has taken 136 of his 200 wickets in Sri Lanka or 68%. So no his record probably isn't little different. You are probably talking out of your arse.

Cut out the insults please. If you want to debate, do it without the insults.

 

[hendrix]

Thats fair enough, but at some point the eye test has to be borne out by the numbers and Herath's are inferior to Swann. I don't think he would have been as effective in the UAE,because he lacked the variation that killed England. Swann is a lot better then Herath, nothing you have come up with has convinced me otherwise

He actually has more variation than Ajmal.

Herath's variations:
An arm ball better than Vettori's that he uses less frequently and thus to greater effect (3:49 of this video - that's probably the best arm ball I've ever seen, completely wasted on Patel)
a carrom ball better than Ashwin's or Narine's or Mendis's (again, he very rarely uses it, but it's very dangerous). 6.37 of this video. This makes up for the lack of doosra
He can turn it big when he needs to
He gets the most dip and drift of any international bowler.

 

[Spark]

I do wonder whether the fact that Herath is so short is actually a big help to him. It means that balls pitched on a length where the batsman really can't get forward to are going to be smashing into the stumps.

He's a clever bowler. Doesn't have that many weapons but knows how to work batsmen over better than any spin bowler in the world, IMO. Gets them out without having to produce the magic balls that Swann and Ajmal are more capable of.

 

[hendrix]

I do wonder whether the fact that Herath is so short is actually a big help to him. It means that balls pitched on a length where the batsman really can't get forward to are going to be smashing into the stumps.

Yeah, the other thing about that is that when you do flight it, the dip is far more greatly pronounced than a taller bowler because the trajectory is much higher on the same length at the same pace - therefore gravity has more time to accelerate the ball as it comes down. This can sometimes actually lead to more bounce than expected on some wickets.

 

[91Jmay]

Yeah i am not doubting Herath is a good bowler, just don't think he has proved himself abroad enough to be up with Ajmal/Swann. A lot of that isn't his fault, they really need to play more away series instead of 4000 ODI's against India every year.

 

[hendrix]

they really need to play more away series instead of 4000 ODI's against India every year.

yup.

that's the problem when your board overspends on setting up a non-profitable IPL clone and can't even afford to pay its own players...

 

[Daemon]

Guys what about abdur rehman?

 

[Hurricane]

Swann is an incredible bowler, he flights the ball beautifully and varies his speed and turn well (more by accident than design though tbf) he is one of the best spinners in the world currently.

Can he vary his flight at will? Had a session with some old timer who reckoned he had played county cricket as an off spinner. Basically his tips centred on on how to vary the flight. It essentially boiled down to using a more round arm action and adjusting the seam position to maximise drift and to come over the top with a more upright arm to get more loop.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Thats fair enough, but at some point the eye test has to be borne out by the numbers and Herath's are inferior to Swann. I don't think he would have been as effective in the UAE, because he lacked the variation that killed England. Swann is a lot better then Herath, nothing you have come up with has convinced me otherwise. I also know that if Swann got to bowl as many overs as Herath does in helpful conditions he'd have better numbers to.

Also Herath didn't play until 2011 is false. He played consistently from 2009 onwards, he just didn't play very well. Swann has been better than Herath from ball 1 of his Test career, and still is.

A lack of variation didn't really hold back Pakistan's SLA.

 

[Adders]

The only reason for why he's so highly rated now is because of one very high profile series against the English in the UAE that was the first to reveal England's major incompetencies against slow bowling
.

Bit much to be giving credit to Ajmal for that mate, England have been hopeless against quality spin bowling for decades........ask SK Warne or any number of Indian or Sri Lankan spinners. Crazy talk to say that Ajmal was the first to expose this weakness.

 

[hendrix]

you know what I mean though -the first to expose the weakness in this England team. I'm not talking about previous English teams.

IIRC, England were ranked number 1 at the time and were proclaimed to be a well-rounded team. That weakness in this particular team was exposed by Ajmal, who just happened to be the first really quality spinner that they faced.

 

[Maximas]

Can he vary his flight at will? Had a session with some old timer who reckoned he had played county cricket as an off spinner. Basically his tips centred on on how to vary the flight. It essentially boiled down to using a more round arm action and adjusting the seam position to maximise drift and to come over the top with a more upright arm to get more loop.

If you vary the angle of spin on the ball (from top spinner to side spinner) then you can get different results, also as you said, he bowls a round-armer which drifts more and skids on, and the more upright your arm, the more dip you get - if top spin is also used. There are a huge number of variables in spin bowling, I try to avoid saying "it all boils down to..." its the combinations that do it IMO.

 

[Maximas]

Guys what about abdur rehman?

He certainly bowls well in conjunction with Ajmal, and outbowled him at times against SL in 2012, but can he do it solo?

 

[Maximas]

My opinion of Herath is coloured because he played club cricket near me about 4 years ago and was absolute garbage, but ' a master' and dominated are ridiculous terms frankly. Suppose my point is that unless he bowls more in oversea's tours then there is no way he can be rated above Swann or Ajmal in my book. Sitting at home with pitches prepared literally for you and taking wickets is only marginally impressive.

What do you think Swann has been doing all summer?

In all seriousness, Herath and Swann are difficult to compare, you can stack up the numbers and assess the variables, but the fact is they both have certain strengths and weaknesses, just because a spinner takes more wickets on turning tracks doesn't mean he is a lesser bowler to one who is more resourceful, as Herath probably makes use of turning tracks a little better than Swann.

 

[Furball]

The pitches aren't being doctored for Swann. They're dry because there's been close to **** all rain for the last 4 months.

 

[Cabinet96]

The pitches aren't being doctored for Swann. They're dry because there's been close to **** all rain for the last 4 months.

As opposed to Sri Lanka pitches, which would be a mixture of green tops and pictures that don't turn at all if they weren't so doctored due to the constant rain and cold temperatures....

I think a lot of people take pitch doctoring in the wrong way. It's perfectly fine and is one of the advantages of being the home side. Sure it's been dry this summer, but it really isn't that hard to water the pitch a bit more if they wanted pitches that weren't dry, but it's a clear benefit for England so they leave it be.

 

[Adders]

I think a lot of people take pitch doctoring in the wrong way. It's perfectly fine and is one of the advantages of being the home side. Sure it's been dry this summer, but it really isn't that hard to water the pitch a bit more if they wanted pitches that weren't dry, but it's a clear benefit for England so they leave it be.

100% agree with you Cab...........nothing grinds my gears more than hearing supporters complaining about "doctored pitches"

I was going to take Social to task over this comment yesterday........

How has Warner been absolute rubbish for a long time?

The guy has performed very well as an opener outside of 2 overseas series where the pitches were doctored to suit the local spinners

That is the biggest crock of **** ever, if Warner can't play spin on turning wickets then that is a weakness in his game. You can't isolate those games from his record as some sort of unfair aberration.

Every home side has every right to expect wickets that will best suit their game........and if they happen to not suit the tourists then so much the better.

 

[91Jmay]

Yeah I am not complaining about Sri Lanka having pitches to suit there bowling attack. It is logical.