***Official*** Pakistan and England in UAE

[Outswinger@Pace]

SA have a far better 5th bowler in Kallis though and their top bowlers are more tried and tested in all conditions.

Well, the fifth bowler option is redundant if you have four guys who can do the job. And Kallis' bowling has looked woeful this season - toothless and couldn't even do a good containing job.

And which top South African bowlers have been tested in all conditions? Personally speaking, I don't regard Morkel as a top bowler (or anywhere in that vicinity) and the potential superstar, Philander is still to bowl outside his nation.

 

[benchmark00]

You can actually play spin purely off the back foot, Martyn was a master of it. Difficult though.

Not on all surfaces. On slow decks like in the sub continent it's easier than other places. The truly great players of spin go both ways. Clarke uses the depth extremely well.

 

[Spark]

Not on all surfaces. On slow decks like in the sub continent it's easier than other places. The truly great players of spin go both ways. Clarke uses the depth extremely well.

Bloke can cut balls off leg stump because of it, it's extraordinary. Dravid's another.

 

[Prince EWS]

Why did Misbah get picked for test cricket so late?

They did give him a go when he was a younger but he didn't have a good start so they dropped him and tried a thousand other players even though he was bossing it domestically. Definitely discarded prematurely although tbf they did have Younis, Yousuf and Inzy for a lot of his career.

 

[smash84]

Why has Misbah played so few tests?

PEWS will know the answer to this.

50 up for Misbah

edit: yep PEWS in already

 

[r3alist]

You do understand the physical phenomena behind reverse swing, don't you?

That would explain why the pitch, humidity, outfield conditions and a few other factors are important.

The other major one being the skill of the bowler, clearly Anderson thought he could do it, that's my point.

 

[uvelocity]

They can try and shine all they want, if it isn't rough enough it won't reverse, simple as that.

nut ball > all

 

[Agent Nationaux]

Grandpa tuk tuk starting to annoy me now.

 

[benchmark00]

The other major one being the skill of the bowler, clearly Anderson thought he could do it, that's my point.

If you can swing it conventionally you can swing it reverse mate. Simple as that.

 

[Uppercut]

Philander has only been playing five seconds though. Since he's come into the side they've won three and lost one (by two wickets, which was the fault of their first innings batting).

It reminds me of when I said England had a better team than India. Sure, if you looked at medium-term results then India were ahead, but that didn't change the fact that the team England were putting out at the time was better; some personnel had changed and some had noticeably improved. Look how that debate worked out.

Its very close between the attacks now, IMO, and I think anyone trying to suggest one is "a good deal" better than the other is a bit off. I'd probably take South Africa's right now if I really had to choose, with Kallis's admittedly deteriorating bowling the tie-breaker. its really close though and I don't have any issue with people saying its England; I just take issue with people saying its comfortably one or the other based on pretty silly reasons like Tremlett not taking a stack of wickeys today or a bowler who's not even amongst South Africa's first six choices anymore being ineffective two years ago.

Hmm my point was really that the South African attack (and team) consistently adds up to less than the sum of its parts. You can have better bowlers in every position but a worse attack. This has even been the case since Philander came into the team- he's been phenomenal but they've still lost a couple of tests they should really have won, partly because Steyn and Morkel haven't been anywhere near as good as they were last year.

It would be silly to count the performances of Tsotsobe and Harris against the current attack but the story of South African bowling has been "not half as good as it really should be" for a couple of years now and the addition of Philander and Tahir didn't change that at all this home summer. I don't think it really suffices to do a "Steyn+Morkel+Philander=WIN" calculation because focusing purely on the quality of the players misses some of the problems that have been evident in their poor results over the past few years: a tendency to seemingly lose interest for long periods when wickets aren't falling, the uncanny ability to lose every match that they ever get anywhere near losing, a lack of ruthlessness when bowling to the tail. Adding someone as good as Philander can't exactly make those problems worse, but will it fix them? Maybe, but the early signs aren't promising.

 

[NasserFan207]

What's the pitch got to do with getting movement in the air?


Interestingly Anderson has tried to get reverse, i assume believing he could achieve it, he has come up short, I suspect a shoaib or steyn would have achieved it.

Reverse swing requires damaging one side of the ball. To do that you need an abrasive pitch, unless you are suggesting tampering.

 

[Ruckus]

They did give him a go when he was a younger but he didn't have a good start so they dropped him and tried a thousand other players even though he was bossing it domestically. Definitely discarded prematurely although tbf they did have Younis, Yousuf and Inzy for a lot of his career.

ah ok, yeah sorry I just noticed he did debut kind of early. That's crazy he was out for 4 years between 2003-2007. Hell of a vacation.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

PEWS the self professed arm chair bot.

 

[smash84]

Not on all surfaces. On slow decks like in the sub continent it's easier than other places. The truly great players of spin go both ways. Clarke uses the depth extremely well.

Javed Miandad was so awesome against spin

Javed Miandad 271 vs NZ 3rd test 1988/89 - YouTube

 

[r3alist]

If you can swing it conventionally you can swing it reverse mate. Simple as that.

**strongly disagree**

How come hoggard was excellent in the first 20 overs, but useless after that, he couldn't reverse it!!

 

[Jarquis]

Would've bowled Pietersen before Trott tbh.

Strauss > Misbah

 

[Agent Nationaux]

I think Anderson is a better reverse swing bowler than Steyn. Obviously not in the same class as Shoaib though.

 

[Outswinger@Pace]

The other major one being the skill of the bowler, clearly Anderson thought he could do it, that's my point.

So, let me get this straight.

Case A:
Your conclusion is entirely based on Anderson's performance today. The fact that he could not reverse swing the ball today (never mind the other variables) conclusively proves, for all intents and purposes, that he is incapable of reverse swinging the ball.
Because (hypothetically) if Steyn or Akhtar would have bowled on this pitch on 18-01-2012, they would have reverse swung the ball.


This is the case you'd like to construct?

 

[Cevno]

Steyn aside, who are you referring to here?

Why Steyn aside?

Meant Steyn and Morkel as a combination has been tested and done decently well in most conditions.

 

[benchmark00]

**strongly disagree**

How come hoggard was excellent in the first 20 overs, but useless after that, he couldn't reverse it!!

I'm going to stop replying to you FYI.